Discussion:
American Apparently Tortured Before Death - so what?
(too old to reply)
TC
2006-03-12 03:34:34 UTC
Permalink
'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

I say so what?

Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
places that haven't made headlines.

Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
torture.

In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
men, women or children.

If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!

Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
started it and even AGREE with the practice!

No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a nail
pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.

Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.

--
***************************
Socialist 'Max the Canuck' on
Tues, Mar 22 2005 3:05 pm said to a conservative poster:

"Since I'm a left wing feller, I wanna make sure you look as bad as
possible."
Nobody
2006-03-12 04:05:59 UTC
Permalink
TC wrote:

> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'

I wouldn't have tought this would deserve the category of 'news'. What
would you expect from his captors. Of course, they are doing it in
Allah's name.
Bob
2006-03-12 04:20:09 UTC
Permalink
TC wrote:

> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>
> I say so what?
>
> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> places that haven't made headlines.

Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.

>
>
> Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
> torture.
>
> In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
> men, women or children.
>
> If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!
>
> Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
> started it and even AGREE with the practice!
>
> No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a nail
> pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.
>
> Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.
>
> --
> ***************************
> Socialist 'Max the Canuck' on
> Tues, Mar 22 2005 3:05 pm said to a conservative poster:
>
> "Since I'm a left wing feller, I wanna make sure you look as bad as
> possible."
brian daily
2006-03-12 04:38:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>> places that haven't made headlines.
>
>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.

Alzheimer patent are you?
Bob
2006-03-12 05:23:47 UTC
Permalink
brian daily wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> >> places that haven't made headlines.
> >
> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>
> Alzheimer patent are you?

No! All I ever saw was Iraqi prisoners being humiliated. No chopping off of heads.
No suicide bombings. No wholesale murders, not like the Muslim terrorists. No,,, not
at all as vicious and cruel as the Muslim terrorists.

Not saying what was done was right, but it was nothing compared to the crimes of our
opponents.
brian daily
2006-03-12 07:01:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:23:47 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>
>brian daily wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>> >> places that haven't made headlines.
>> >
>> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>>
>> Alzheimer patent are you?
>
>No!

Just a naive fool then?
Bob
2006-03-12 15:52:50 UTC
Permalink
brian daily wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:23:47 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >brian daily wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> >> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> >> >> places that haven't made headlines.
> >> >
> >> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
> >>
> >> Alzheimer patent are you?
> >
> >No!
>
> Just a naive fool then?

That I may be but you people are so good at getting information to use to shit all
over the Americans that I am positive if there were something more then just a bunch
of pictures of guys being humiliated you would have printed them long before now.
TC
2006-03-12 16:48:56 UTC
Permalink
> > >> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> That I may be but you people are so good at getting information to use to
shit all
> over the Americans that I am positive if there were something more then
just a bunch
> of pictures of guys being humiliated you would have printed them long
before now.
>

Bob, I am not against the American people. They have as much control over
the military industrial complex as you are I do. I admire many things about
what the USA used to have going for it, and in some ways still does (Bill of
Rights culture etc).

If you have read anything I posted before (I don't expect to be read BTW),
you'll see I am an actual conservative. A *real* one, not a neo-con,
Trotskyite or any other form of greedy hegemenous filth. George Bush is NOT,
I repeat, *NOT* a conservative.

The USA is being destroyed in the eyes of the world, and from within, both
spiritually, physically and economically - ON PURPOSE. Is American culture
nothing more now than Happy Meals, Britney Spears,Walmart and pornography?
The USA is a nation at ill.

The goal is to degrade the USA, making the world hate it (largely due to
Anti-American interventionist actions of a few in power) thus illustrating
its inability to maintain its role as super power and 'world cop', and
further edifying and empowering the United Nations to take over this role.
brian daily
2006-03-12 17:09:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:52:50 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>
>brian daily wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:23:47 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >brian daily wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>> >> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>> >> >> places that haven't made headlines.
>> >> >
>> >> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>> >>
>> >> Alzheimer patent are you?
>> >
>> >No!
>>
>> Just a naive fool then?
>
>That I may be

I agree.
Bob
2006-03-12 18:15:13 UTC
Permalink
brian daily wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:52:50 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >brian daily wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:23:47 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >brian daily wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> >> >> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> >> >> >> places that haven't made headlines.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
> >> >>
> >> >> Alzheimer patent are you?
> >> >
> >> >No!
> >>
> >> Just a naive fool then?
> >
> >That I may be
>
> I agree.

That's what's so great about democracy. People like myself can post logical arguments and
fools like you can sit back and take pot shots.

Your terrorist friends would have you dead in a heart beat just for being American.
brian daily
2006-03-12 18:44:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:15:13 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>
>brian daily wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:52:50 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >brian daily wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:23:47 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >brian daily wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>> >> >> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>> >> >> >> places that haven't made headlines.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Alzheimer patent are you?
>> >> >
>> >> >No!
>> >>
>> >> Just a naive fool then?
>> >
>> >That I may be
>>
>> I agree.
>
>That's what's so great about democracy. People like myself can post logical arguments and
>fools like you can sit back and take pot shots.
>
>Your terrorist friends would have you dead in a heart beat just for being American.

You are an idiot.

Bush Sr killed thousands of innocent Iraqis in the first Gulf war.
The US spent an entire decade after that bombing Iraq killing more innocent
Iraqis.
In that entire decade several thousand Americans students, scholars and teachers
traveled the length and breadth of Iraq visiting holy places, cities, and
archeological wonders.
Do you know how many Americans were killed in Iraq during that time?
NONE. The Iraqis hated the American government but they did NOT hate or BLAME
the American people. They blamed the US government and Saddam.
They only started hating the American people after GWBush attacked their country
killing thousands for NO reason other than to steal their oil.

Now Bob explain why no American, British, or Canadian tourists were harmed in
Iraq during the entire decade of the 90's.
Students traveled the country on motorcycles, bus tours from Kuwait, from
Turkey. NOT ONE WAS KILLED TORTURED OR KIDNAPPED.
They were safer in Iraq than on any street in a major American city.
Bob
2006-03-12 18:56:40 UTC
Permalink
brian daily wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:15:13 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >brian daily wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:52:50 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >brian daily wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:23:47 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >brian daily wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> >> >> >> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> >> >> >> >> places that haven't made headlines.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Alzheimer patent are you?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >No!
> >> >>
> >> >> Just a naive fool then?
> >> >
> >> >That I may be
> >>
> >> I agree.
> >
> >That's what's so great about democracy. People like myself can post logical arguments and
> >fools like you can sit back and take pot shots.
> >
> >Your terrorist friends would have you dead in a heart beat just for being American.
>
> You are an idiot.
>
> Bush Sr killed thousands of innocent Iraqis in the first Gulf war.
> The US spent an entire decade after that bombing Iraq killing more innocent
> Iraqis.
> In that entire decade several thousand Americans students, scholars and teachers
> traveled the length and breadth of Iraq visiting holy places, cities, and
> archeological wonders.
> Do you know how many Americans were killed in Iraq during that time?
> NONE. The Iraqis hated the American government but they did NOT hate or BLAME
> the American people. They blamed the US government and Saddam.
> They only started hating the American people after GWBush attacked their country
> killing thousands for NO reason other than to steal their oil.
>
> Now Bob explain why no American, British, or Canadian tourists were harmed in
> Iraq during the entire decade of the 90's.
> Students traveled the country on motorcycles, bus tours from Kuwait, from
> Turkey. NOT ONE WAS KILLED TORTURED OR KIDNAPPED.
> They were safer in Iraq than on any street in a major American city.

Bla bla bla!

But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.

Lets face it when it comes to being bastards the Americans are pussies.
brian daily
2006-03-12 19:16:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:56:40 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Bla bla bla!

This proves it.
You can't answer because you're a mindless idiot.
Bob
2006-03-12 19:23:15 UTC
Permalink
brian daily wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:56:40 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Bla bla bla!
>
> This proves it.
> You can't answer because you're a mindless idiot.

I don't intend to argue about red herrings and side issues.

I say again!

But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.

You can squirm and yap all you want but it does not change what I said.
brian daily
2006-03-12 19:46:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:23:15 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>
>brian daily wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:56:40 -0500, Blattering Village Idiot Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >Bla bla bla!
>
>I don't intend to argue about red herrings and side issues.

That not a SINGLE American of the thousands who visited the country was harmed
in Iraq during the 1990s is a red herring?
No it proves that Iraqis are a better people than Americans could ever be.
g***@hotmail.com
2006-03-12 19:46:17 UTC
Permalink
In any case what does an attack on a Canadian soldier in Afganistan
have to do with US torture and murder in the Middle East?

The US is fighting a war in Iraq. That doesn't them the right to
torture ppl.

.
Bob
2006-03-12 20:06:48 UTC
Permalink
***@hotmail.com wrote:

> In any case what does an attack on a Canadian soldier in Afganistan
> have to do with US torture and murder in the Middle East?
>
> The US is fighting a war in Iraq.

And in Afganistan.

> That doesn't them the right to
> torture ppl

Well I was comparing the rinkie dinky little bit of BS that was being done in the
Abu Ghraib prison by Private First Class Lynndie England that amounted to nothing
more then some humiliation of prisoners to what the terrorists were doing.

The last item that I included on the list of "terrorist activities" was sneaking up
behind a Canadian officer and bashing him from behind with an axe while he thought he
was safely having tea with these noble Afghan elders.

IE. I said that they were guilty of humiliating prisoners:

But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
Peter D
2006-03-13 12:37:07 UTC
Permalink
"Rinky dinky little bit of BS"? Torture is torture. And there was a whole
lot more that "rinky dinky" going on. And FWIW there is a long list of
examples of wrongdoings and civilian slaughter by the US forces. All of
which doens't matter because torturing anyoen is wrong. Always. By anyone.
Regardless of how bad or not the "other guy" is. Got it? Probalby not.

"Bob" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:***@sympatico.ca...
>
>
> ***@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> In any case what does an attack on a Canadian soldier in Afganistan
>> have to do with US torture and murder in the Middle East?
>>
>> The US is fighting a war in Iraq.
>
> And in Afganistan.
>
>> That doesn't them the right to
>> torture ppl
>
> Well I was comparing the rinkie dinky little bit of BS that was being
> done in the
> Abu Ghraib prison by Private First Class Lynndie England that amounted to
> nothing
> more then some humiliation of prisoners to what the terrorists were doing.
>
> The last item that I included on the list of "terrorist activities" was
> sneaking up
> behind a Canadian officer and bashing him from behind with an axe while he
> thought he
> was safely having tea with these noble Afghan elders.
>
> IE. I said that they were guilty of humiliating prisoners:
>
> But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings.
> No video
> head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind
> young
> Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
Schweppervescence
2006-03-13 19:26:49 UTC
Permalink
I'm just happy that you clowns can't stop anything happening in the world that
you don't like. All you can do is whine and snivel. And since the danish
cartoon fiasco, most of the world knows that muslims are freaks and the
anti-war brigade has fewer supporters than ever before. Your
pseudo-righteousness amuses me only because it is so ineffectual, just like the
rest of your faculties. A couple of weeks ago a videotape surfaced of some
British soldiers beating on Iraqis in the middle of a riot. It was basically
the same thing some Vancouver police did at a 'Guns & Roses' riot a few years
ago but those police got less flak for it than the British soldiers did, even
though the Vancouver police were facing bottle rockets and the British soldiers
were facing machine-gun and REAL rocket fire.

I laugh at people whos cowardice finds them pulling a sanctimonious but
entirely laughable attempt at pretending to harbor superior morals.

In article <THdRf.138413$H%***@pd7tw2no>, ***@.sk says...
>
>"Rinky dinky little bit of BS"? Torture is torture. And there was a whole
>lot more that "rinky dinky" going on. And FWIW there is a long list of
>examples of wrongdoings and civilian slaughter by the US forces. All of
>which doens't matter because torturing anyoen is wrong. Always. By anyone.
>Regardless of how bad or not the "other guy" is. Got it? Probalby not.
>
>"Bob" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:***@sympatico.ca...
>>
>>
>> ***@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> In any case what does an attack on a Canadian soldier in Afganistan
>>> have to do with US torture and murder in the Middle East?
>>>
>>> The US is fighting a war in Iraq.
>>
>> And in Afganistan.
>>
>>> That doesn't them the right to
>>> torture ppl
>>
>> Well I was comparing the rinkie dinky little bit of BS that was being
>> done in the
>> Abu Ghraib prison by Private First Class Lynndie England that amounted to
>> nothing
>> more then some humiliation of prisoners to what the terrorists were doing.
>>
>> The last item that I included on the list of "terrorist activities" was
>> sneaking up
>> behind a Canadian officer and bashing him from behind with an axe while he
>> thought he
>> was safely having tea with these noble Afghan elders.
>>
>> IE. I said that they were guilty of humiliating prisoners:
>>
>> But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings.
>> No video
>> head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind
>> young
>> Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
>
>
Schweppervescence
2006-03-13 19:38:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <ZHjRf.27379$***@edtnps84>, ***@schweep.com says...
>
>
>I'm just happy that you clowns can't stop anything happening in the world that
>you don't like. All you can do is whine and snivel. And since the danish
>cartoon fiasco, most of the world knows that muslims are freaks and the
>anti-war brigade has fewer supporters than ever before.

Besides, when are you morons going to get it through your thick skulls that
muslims DON'T CARE about Iraqis getting tortured or killed. They DON'T care
about Afghanis getting tortured or killed. They couldn't have cared less when
Serbs ethnically cleansed muslim Albanians, and they don't give a SHIT about
what the Russians are doing to Checnyan muslims. The only thing they care
about is DANISH CARTOONS. THAT'S what gets them to take to the streets en
masse shrieking insanely and burning down embassies all over the world. I know
it may come as a shock to you that approximately 800 million people on earth
are completely insane, but look yourself in the mirror for a moment, you're not
exactly the spitting image of rationality either are you, you pathetic
post-colonial terminally guilt-ridden middle-class jagoff.
Schweppervescence
2006-03-13 19:46:33 UTC
Permalink
In article <iTjRf.30692$***@clgrps13>, ***@schweep.com says...

> They couldn't have cared less when
>Serbs ethnically cleansed muslim Albanians,

By the way, ever wondered why the canadian newsgroups weren't filled with posts
condemning Serbs for their actions at the time, like the canadian newsgroups
have been filled with posts condemning americans for the past few years? Do
you suppose it could have something to do with the fact that canadians don't
harbor extreme envy and a massive inferiority complex towards Serbs? Well no,
you wouldn't suppose that because you're living it, but I suppose it because I
know exactly how pathetic you people really are.
c***@hotmail.com
2006-03-13 20:07:45 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes


Typical US bullshit rhetoric. Do you wear cammys with that clown mask?



On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:46:33 GMT, ***@schweep.com
(Schweppervescence) wrote:

>In article <iTjRf.30692$***@clgrps13>, ***@schweep.com says...
>
>> They couldn't have cared less when
>>Serbs ethnically cleansed muslim Albanians,
>
>By the way, ever wondered why the canadian newsgroups weren't filled with posts
>condemning Serbs for their actions at the time, like the canadian newsgroups
>have been filled with posts condemning americans for the past few years? Do
>you suppose it could have something to do with the fact that canadians don't
>harbor extreme envy and a massive inferiority complex towards Serbs? Well no,
>you wouldn't suppose that because you're living it, but I suppose it because I
>know exactly how pathetic you people really are.
c***@hotmail.com
2006-03-13 20:08:04 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes


Typical US bullshit rhetoric. Do you wear cammys with that clown mask?




On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:38:54 GMT, ***@schweep.com
(Schweppervescence) wrote:

>In article <ZHjRf.27379$***@edtnps84>, ***@schweep.com says...
>>
>>
>>I'm just happy that you clowns can't stop anything happening in the world that
>>you don't like. All you can do is whine and snivel. And since the danish
>>cartoon fiasco, most of the world knows that muslims are freaks and the
>>anti-war brigade has fewer supporters than ever before.
>
>Besides, when are you morons going to get it through your thick skulls that
>muslims DON'T CARE about Iraqis getting tortured or killed. They DON'T care
>about Afghanis getting tortured or killed. They couldn't have cared less when
>Serbs ethnically cleansed muslim Albanians, and they don't give a SHIT about
>what the Russians are doing to Checnyan muslims. The only thing they care
>about is DANISH CARTOONS. THAT'S what gets them to take to the streets en
>masse shrieking insanely and burning down embassies all over the world. I know
>it may come as a shock to you that approximately 800 million people on earth
>are completely insane, but look yourself in the mirror for a moment, you're not
>exactly the spitting image of rationality either are you, you pathetic
>post-colonial terminally guilt-ridden middle-class jagoff.
c***@hotmail.com
2006-03-13 20:04:11 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes



Typical US bullshit rhetoric, what a clown.



On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:26:49 GMT, ***@schweep.com
(Schweppervescence) wrote:

>
>I'm just happy that you clowns can't stop anything happening in the world that
>you don't like. All you can do is whine and snivel. And since the danish
>cartoon fiasco, most of the world knows that muslims are freaks and the
>anti-war brigade has fewer supporters than ever before. Your
>pseudo-righteousness amuses me only because it is so ineffectual, just like the
>rest of your faculties. A couple of weeks ago a videotape surfaced of some
>British soldiers beating on Iraqis in the middle of a riot. It was basically
>the same thing some Vancouver police did at a 'Guns & Roses' riot a few years
>ago but those police got less flak for it than the British soldiers did, even
>though the Vancouver police were facing bottle rockets and the British soldiers
>were facing machine-gun and REAL rocket fire.
>
>I laugh at people whos cowardice finds them pulling a sanctimonious but
>entirely laughable attempt at pretending to harbor superior morals.
>
>In article <THdRf.138413$H%***@pd7tw2no>, ***@.sk says...
>>
>>"Rinky dinky little bit of BS"? Torture is torture. And there was a whole
>>lot more that "rinky dinky" going on. And FWIW there is a long list of
>>examples of wrongdoings and civilian slaughter by the US forces. All of
>>which doens't matter because torturing anyoen is wrong. Always. By anyone.
>>Regardless of how bad or not the "other guy" is. Got it? Probalby not.
>>
>>"Bob" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>news:***@sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>>
>>> ***@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> In any case what does an attack on a Canadian soldier in Afganistan
>>>> have to do with US torture and murder in the Middle East?
>>>>
>>>> The US is fighting a war in Iraq.
>>>
>>> And in Afganistan.
>>>
>>>> That doesn't them the right to
>>>> torture ppl
>>>
>>> Well I was comparing the rinkie dinky little bit of BS that was being
>>> done in the
>>> Abu Ghraib prison by Private First Class Lynndie England that amounted to
>>> nothing
>>> more then some humiliation of prisoners to what the terrorists were doing.
>>>
>>> The last item that I included on the list of "terrorist activities" was
>>> sneaking up
>>> behind a Canadian officer and bashing him from behind with an axe while he
>>> thought he
>>> was safely having tea with these noble Afghan elders.
>>>
>>> IE. I said that they were guilty of humiliating prisoners:
>>>
>>> But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings.
>>> No video
>>> head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind
>>> young
>>> Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
>>
>>
Schweppervescence
2006-03-13 21:28:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@hotmail.com
says...
>
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>
>
>Typical US bullshit rhetoric, what a clown.

Translation: SNIVEL SNIVEL WHINE!!! X-NO ARCHIVE MY EMBARASSING BLUBBERING!!

>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:26:49 GMT, ***@schweep.com
>(Schweppervescence) wrote:
>
>>
>>I'm just happy that you clowns can't stop anything happening in the world
that
>>you don't like. All you can do is whine and snivel. And since the danish
>>cartoon fiasco, most of the world knows that muslims are freaks and the
>>anti-war brigade has fewer supporters than ever before. Your
>>pseudo-righteousness amuses me only because it is so ineffectual, just like
the
>>rest of your faculties. A couple of weeks ago a videotape surfaced of some
>>British soldiers beating on Iraqis in the middle of a riot. It was basically
>>the same thing some Vancouver police did at a 'Guns & Roses' riot a few years
>>ago but those police got less flak for it than the British soldiers did, even
>>though the Vancouver police were facing bottle rockets and the British
soldiers
>>were facing machine-gun and REAL rocket fire.
>>
>>I laugh at people whos cowardice finds them pulling a sanctimonious but
>>entirely laughable attempt at pretending to harbor superior morals.
>>
>>In article <THdRf.138413$H%***@pd7tw2no>, ***@.sk says...
>>>
>>>"Rinky dinky little bit of BS"? Torture is torture. And there was a whole
>>>lot more that "rinky dinky" going on. And FWIW there is a long list of
>>>examples of wrongdoings and civilian slaughter by the US forces. All of
>>>which doens't matter because torturing anyoen is wrong. Always. By anyone.
>>>Regardless of how bad or not the "other guy" is. Got it? Probalby not.
>>>
>>>"Bob" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:***@sympatico.ca...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In any case what does an attack on a Canadian soldier in Afganistan
>>>>> have to do with US torture and murder in the Middle East?
>>>>>
>>>>> The US is fighting a war in Iraq.
>>>>
>>>> And in Afganistan.
>>>>
>>>>> That doesn't them the right to
>>>>> torture ppl
>>>>
>>>> Well I was comparing the rinkie dinky little bit of BS that was being
>>>> done in the
>>>> Abu Ghraib prison by Private First Class Lynndie England that amounted to
>>>> nothing
>>>> more then some humiliation of prisoners to what the terrorists were doing.
>>>>
>>>> The last item that I included on the list of "terrorist activities" was
>>>> sneaking up
>>>> behind a Canadian officer and bashing him from behind with an axe while he
>>>> thought he
>>>> was safely having tea with these noble Afghan elders.
>>>>
>>>> IE. I said that they were guilty of humiliating prisoners:
>>>>
>>>> But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings.
>>>> No video
>>>> head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind
>>>> young
>>>> Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
>>>
>>>
>
g***@hotmail.com
2006-03-12 18:02:32 UTC
Permalink
I read a letter to the editor awhile back that some of the junior
American hockey players at GM Place cried because of the heckling they
endured.

American govt employees are torturing ppl through sleep deprivation and
other techniques as well as the despicable Abu Ghraib tortures that
were recorded for the sexual thrills of the torturers. These ppl are
evil and deserve prison and death.
brian daily
2006-03-12 18:16:17 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Mar 2006 10:02:32 -0800, ***@hotmail.com wrote:

>I read a letter to the editor awhile back that some of the junior
>American hockey players at GM Place cried because of the heckling they
>endured.
>
Was that the same event where a dozen US cars had all their tires slashed?
I heard that tire slashing of American cars is becoming very popular in big
border cities. When I live we never see American cars, just big American yachts.
No scuttling so far.<g>

>American govt employees are torturing ppl through sleep deprivation and
>other techniques as well as the despicable Abu Ghraib tortures that
>were recorded for the sexual thrills of the torturers. These ppl are
>evil and deserve prison and death.
Bob
2006-03-12 18:39:34 UTC
Permalink
***@hotmail.com wrote:

> I read a letter to the editor awhile back that some of the junior
> American hockey players at GM Place cried because of the heckling they
> endured.
>
> American govt employees are torturing ppl through sleep deprivation and
> other techniques as well as the despicable Abu Ghraib tortures that
> were recorded for the sexual thrills of the torturers. These ppl are
> evil and deserve prison and death.

But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.

Lets face it when it comes to being bastards the Americans are pussies.
f***@mts.net
2006-03-12 19:09:35 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:39:34 -0500, Bob
<***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>
>***@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> I read a letter to the editor awhile back that some of the junior
>> American hockey players at GM Place cried because of the heckling they
>> endured.
>>
>> American govt employees are torturing ppl through sleep deprivation and
>> other techniques as well as the despicable Abu Ghraib tortures that
>> were recorded for the sexual thrills of the torturers. These ppl are
>> evil and deserve prison and death.
>
>But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
>head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
>Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
>
>Lets face it when it comes to being bastards the Americans are pussies.
>

But they usually start the shit storm, and then it comes around to ass
bite them, and it looks good on them..
Bob
2006-03-12 19:19:00 UTC
Permalink
***@mts.net wrote:

> X-No-Archive: Yes On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:39:34 -0500, Bob
> <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >***@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> I read a letter to the editor awhile back that some of the junior
> >> American hockey players at GM Place cried because of the heckling they
> >> endured.
> >>
> >> American govt employees are torturing ppl through sleep deprivation and
> >> other techniques as well as the despicable Abu Ghraib tortures that
> >> were recorded for the sexual thrills of the torturers. These ppl are
> >> evil and deserve prison and death.
> >
> >But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
> >head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
> >Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
> >
> >Lets face it when it comes to being bastards the Americans are pussies.
> >
>
> But they usually start the shit storm, and then it comes around to ass
> bite them, and it looks good on them..

Yes and they were the first in flight, and on the moon and to detonate an atomic bomb,
but it has nothing to do with what I said.!

But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
c***@hotmail.com
2006-03-12 19:52:43 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:19:00 -0500, Bob
<***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>
>***@mts.net wrote:
>
>> X-No-Archive: Yes On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:39:34 -0500, Bob
>> <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >***@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> I read a letter to the editor awhile back that some of the junior
>> >> American hockey players at GM Place cried because of the heckling they
>> >> endured.
>> >>
>> >> American govt employees are torturing ppl through sleep deprivation and
>> >> other techniques as well as the despicable Abu Ghraib tortures that
>> >> were recorded for the sexual thrills of the torturers. These ppl are
>> >> evil and deserve prison and death.
>> >
>> >But no chopping off of heads and hands. No stoning. No suicide bombings. No video
>> >head removals. No blowing up of wedding receptions. No sneaking up behind young
>> >Canadian officer having tea and chopping them in the head with an axe.
>> >
>> >Lets face it when it comes to being bastards the Americans are pussies.
>> >
>>
>> But they usually start the shit storm, and then it comes around to ass
>> bite them, and it looks good on them..
>
>Yes and they were the first in flight, and on the moon and to detonate an atomic bomb,
>but it has nothing to do with what I said.!


Yes the USA were the first to detonate the atomic bomb.

Casualties in Nagasaki:
Killed 73,884
Injured 74,909
Total Casualties 148,793

Casualties in Hiroshima
Dead 66,000
Injured 69,000
Total Casualties 135,000
g***@hotmail.com
2006-03-12 20:20:34 UTC
Permalink
No Bob. But the US did drop napalm on children in Vietnam. They
overthrew the democratically elected govt of Chile. The US paid a
bounty in the Vietnam conflict for severed ears and hands and heads.
Are you that ignorant of US history? Go to the library and get some
videos on the subject they are free. The US also unfairly and illegally
imposes a softwood lumber tariff that costs US owned companies in
Canada and the Canadian lumber industry in general around 5 billion
dollars. In Cambodia the Nixon regime had B-52's secretly pulverize
targets with carpet bombings. More ppl were killed in these terror
raids than have ever been killed by car bombs. Still the US lost the
war and over 50,000 military personnel lost their lives. It also cost
American taxpayers billions.
brian daily
2006-03-12 20:54:28 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Mar 2006 12:20:34 -0800, ***@hotmail.com wrote:

>No Bob. But the US did drop napalm on children in Vietnam. They
>overthrew the democratically elected govt of Chile. The US paid a
>bounty in the Vietnam conflict for severed ears and hands and heads.
>Are you that ignorant of US history?

How about now. If Iraqi when you hear a US patrol coming you get off the road.
A boy with his bicycle did just that. He dropped his bike loaded down with
firewood beside the road and ran into the ditch to hide.
The US Patrol stopped before they got to the bike and lobbed several grenades
into the ditch killing the boy. THEN they fired on the bike. When the wood
didn't explode they drove on running over the bike with their Hummers and
laughing.
All this witnessed by a dozen people.

>Go to the library and get some
>videos on the subject they are free. The US also unfairly and illegally
>imposes a softwood lumber tariff that costs US owned companies in
>Canada and the Canadian lumber industry in general around 5 billion
>dollars. In Cambodia the Nixon regime had B-52's secretly pulverize
>targets with carpet bombings. More ppl were killed in these terror
>raids than have ever been killed by car bombs. Still the US lost the
>war and over 50,000 military personnel lost their lives. It also cost
>American taxpayers billions.
Nobody
2006-03-12 21:20:30 UTC
Permalink
brian daily wrote:


> How about now. If Iraqi when you hear a US patrol coming you get
> off the road. A boy with his bicycle did just that. He dropped his
> bike loaded down with firewood beside the road and ran into the
> ditch to hide. The US Patrol stopped before they got to the bike
> and lobbed several grenades into the ditch killing the boy. THEN
> they fired on the bike. When the wood didn't explode they drove on
> running over the bike with their Hummers and laughing.
> All this witnessed by a dozen people.

I would sure like to see your sources for information. Before you jump
through you ass and start calling me names, I never heard that story.
IF it is true, I would like to see proof that it isn't just another of
your 'bad dreams' put to words.

Of course, if you can't do that, then you are truly nuts.
Ivan Gowch
2006-03-12 23:43:35 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Mar 2006 21:20:30 GMT, Nobody <***@home.anymore> wrote:

==>brian daily wrote:
==>> How about now. If Iraqi when you hear a US patrol coming you get
==>> off the road. A boy with his bicycle did just that. He dropped his
==>> bike loaded down with firewood beside the road and ran into the
==>> ditch to hide. The US Patrol stopped before they got to the bike
==>> and lobbed several grenades into the ditch killing the boy. THEN
==>> they fired on the bike. When the wood didn't explode they drove on
==>> running over the bike with their Hummers and laughing.
==>> All this witnessed by a dozen people.

==>I would sure like to see your sources for information. Before you jump
==>through you ass and start calling me names, I never heard that story.

You never heard it, so it can't be true, right?

==>IF it is true, I would like to see proof that it isn't just another of
==>your 'bad dreams' put to words.

Glad to oblige, asshole. (I couldn't find the
bicycle story either, but that doesn't mean it
didn't happen. No matter, the following is
horrific enough for anyone who has a shred
of humanity left.)


Published on Monday, August 4, 2003 by the Boston Globe

Bitterness Grows in Iraq Over Deaths of Civilians
by Vivienne Walt

BAGHDAD -- It was 10:30 on a sweltering night when 12-year-old
Mohammed al-Kubaisi climbed the concrete steps leading to his family's
rooftop. The boy held two blankets so that he and his twin brother,
Moustafa, could curl up together on the roof for the night, one of
their favorite summer habits.

Mohammed had just reached the top when he turned to watch the military
maneuvers on the street below: American soldiers were patrolling with
rifles. One soldier looked up in the darkness and saw a figure on the
roof, watching him.

A single bullet exploded into the air.


Wafa Abdul Latif holds a photo of her 12-year-old son, shot dead when
he peeked over their Baghdad rooftop at patrolling U.S. troops.

Mohammed's mother recalled dragging her son inside and screaming as
she held him, his blood pouring onto the floor. She said Mohammed was
struggling to breathe when a group of US soldiers slammed through the
front door and pushed her aside as they searched the house.

''There were two patrols walking from different directions,'' Wafa
Abdul Latif, 44, said in her living room, clutching a large, framed
portrait of Mohammed. ''One patrol group thought the shot had come
from inside the house.''

The second group had burst in after hearing the shot aimed at
Mohammed, figuring a weapon had been fired from the home.

The death of one boy on June 26 is an almost-forgotten story as US
forces continue to face deadly attacks by armed insurgents. But Iraqis
say the regularity of deaths among their own has hardened people's
feelings regarding the American occupation.

In numerous interviews, Iraqis said that more than factors like
unemployment, fuel shortages, or electricity blackouts, civilian
casualties since the war's end have raised the level of bitterness
against US soldiers and could prolong or widen armed resistance.

''It has increased our hate against Americans,'' said Ali Hatem, 23, a
computer science student at the University of Baghdad. ''It also
increases the violence against them. In Iraq, we are tribal people.
When someone loses their son, they want revenge.''

Neither Iraqis nor American forces keep statistics for dead civilians
like Mohammed, whose shooting the US military calls a tragic accident.
At least three Iraqis were killed in western Baghdad's elegant Mansour
district on July 27, when US soldiers from Task Force 20 opened fire
on cars that overshot a military cordon. The drivers apparently had
missed the cordon when they turned into the area from an unblocked
side street.

In late April, soldiers from the 82d Airborne Division shot dead 13
Iraqis when they opened fire on protesters in the town of Fallujah,
about 50 miles west of Baghdad. Soldiers fired on another
demonstration on June 18 at the gates of the Republican Palace in
Baghdad, killing at least two people. In both those cases, US forces
said they believed they were being fired upon by armed insurgents
hidden in the crowd.

US officials have expressed regret that innocent people have been
caught in the crossfire of the ongoing conflict.

''I'm working very hard to ensure that with our tactics we aren't
alienating the Iraqi people,'' Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez,
commander of US forces in Iraq, said Thursday. When asked whether
officers had apologized to the families of five Iraqis killed during a
botched raid in Mansour on July 27, Sanchez said, ''Apologies are not
something that we have as a normal procedure in the military
processes.''

The US military generally refuses to provide compensation to survivors
of Iraqis killed in the crossfire or through misunderstandings,
whether at military checkpoints or during patrols. Such cases are
regarded as occurring during combat and thus are ineligible for
compensation under US military laws enacted during World War II.


Iraqi's stand next to a civilian car which was damaged after US
soldiers fired at it at a check-point near Al Gailani mosque in
Baghdad, Iraq, Thursday, July 24,2003. Two Iraqis were killed in the
incident. (AP Photo/Sergei Grits)

''Our soldiers are conducting combat operations,'' said Colonel Marc
Warren, the senior US military lawyer in Iraq. ''We are still engaged
in combat operations.''

But the military has launched an internal investigation into
Mohammed's death ''because it involved a 12-year-old boy,'' Warren
said yesterday.

Some of those mourning their relatives say they feel pained that US
soldiers have not offered compensation or apologies. Compensation,
usually in the form of money, is an Iraqi tradition when a killing
occurs. Among several Iraqi tribes, a retaliatory killing is expected.
''No Americans have visited us to speak about what happened,'' said
Moustafa Ahmed, 28, who says his 24-year-old brother, Uday Ahmed, was
shot by a soldier from the 82d Airborne Division. ''And we don't feel
we can go speak to them.'' His brother was killed July 9.

Uday had been fixing a neighbor's car to earn money. He walked a few
blocks from his house in the southwest Baghdad district of Saidiya to
an auto repair yard to look for a spare part. Walking across the yard,
he held the car's ignition distributor, a metal object about the size
and shape of a hand grenade.

He was clearly visible from the roof of the Dorah Police Station that
abuts the repair yard. There, 82d Airborne soldiers are posted behind
sandbags, rifles at the ready.

From atop the roof, a soldier spotted Uday Ahmed and fired. Details of
what happened came from several witnesses in the yard who were
interviewed Thursday.

''I heard the bang of a rifle shot and swung around,'' said Ali
Hassan, 40, who runs an outdoor falafel stand about 20 feet from where
Uday stood. ''This man was holding a car part. He doubled over
bleeding and then glanced up.

''At that moment, a second shot came from the roof of the police
station,'' he said. ''It hit him, and he dropped. There was blood
everywhere.''

The soldiers posted at the Dorah Police Station would not comment on
Uday Ahmed's death and referred a reporter to the division's base two
blocks away. Commanders there declined to discuss the case. In the
case of 12-year-old Mohammed, soldiers visited the family to
apologize.

''They asked us what compensation we wanted,'' Latif, his mother,
said. ''My husband was incensed. He said he wanted 10 of their men to
die in exchange.''

The couple say the visitors told them a soldier had been arrested for
their son's death. A military spokesman, Colonel Guy Shields, denied
that. Colonel Warren said the soldier who shot Mohammed was from the
82d Airborne.

Family members insist the boy's death was not an accident. They say
Mohammed could have been saved that night, if it had not been for the
unyielding soldiers at a checkpoint in the Hay al-Jihad district in
south Baghdad. ''I tried to rush him to the hospital in my car,'' said
a neighbor, 17-year-old Yaser Ala'. ''They stopped us at the
checkpoint because it was nearly curfew time.''

Ala' drove back to the house, where Mohammed bled to death in the car.
They left the boy there until the curfew lifted at dawn, then drove to
the hospital to confirm his death.

Details of Mohammed's death were cited in a report released July 23 by
Amnesty International. The London-based organization said its
researchers in Iraq had determined that US forces were at times
trigger-happy and were ill prepared for policing Iraq.

Unable to accept the death of his identical twin, Moustafa al-Kubaisi
recently moved to his aunt's house, saying he could not bear being at
home. In late July, he pooled his savings of 10,000 dinars, about $8,
and bought a bicycle as a tribute for his dead brother.

© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company
Nobody
2006-03-13 00:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Ivan Gowch wrote:

> On 12 Mar 2006 21:20:30 GMT, Nobody <***@home.anymore> wrote:
>
> ==>brian daily wrote:
> ==>> How about now. If Iraqi when you hear a US patrol coming you
> get ==>> off the road. A boy with his bicycle did just that. He
> dropped his ==>> bike loaded down with firewood beside the road
> and ran into the ==>> ditch to hide. The US Patrol stopped before
> they got to the bike ==>> and lobbed several grenades into the
> ditch killing the boy. THEN ==>> they fired on the bike. When the
> wood didn't explode they drove on ==>> running over the bike with
> their Hummers and laughing. ==>> All this witnessed by a dozen
> people.
>
> ==>I would sure like to see your sources for information. Before
> you jump ==>through you ass and start calling me names, I never
> heard that story.
>
> You never heard it, so it can't be true, right?

That isn't what I said. Those are your words. I said: "I never
heard that story. IF it is true, I would like to see proof that it
isn't just another of your 'bad dreams' put to words."

> ==>IF it is true, I would like to see proof that it isn't just
> another of ==>your 'bad dreams' put to words.
>
> Glad to oblige, asshole. (I couldn't find the
> bicycle story either, but that doesn't mean it
> didn't happen. No matter, the following is
> horrific enough for anyone who has a shred
> of humanity left.)

I guess you don't get it either asshole. I asked Brian to come up
with the bicycle story. He didn't and neither have you. I agree
that the story you posted is indeed horrific but it still isn't what
I had asked for. I have never said that there are not some seriously
bad things going on in Iraq and Afganistan. What I question is the
source of little Brian's info. He seems to have no trouble dropping
little bits of information around so, why can't he take note of where
he got that information at the same time.

I get a kick out of you comment "I couldn't find the bicycle story
either, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen." So I guess when I
say that I couldn't find the story about you banging you sister in
law, it doesn't mean it didn't happen ;)


> Published on Monday, August 4, 2003 by the Boston Globe
>
g***@vcn.bc.ca
2006-03-13 06:52:18 UTC
Permalink
No, there won't be compensation or apologies; these are the same goofballs who
laugh it up while pegging off rats with a .22 at the local junkyard; they
figure shooting unarmed Iraqi kids is just the same thing, but with more
powerful weapons!

Fucking animals!


--

Because I care,

|<+]::-( ("Cyberpope," the Bishop of ROM!)
(aka Reverend George A. Pope)
(Please quote with "gapope wrote...")
-=-
In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
in all things, charity. -- Baxter quoting Augustine
-=-
note new preferred reply email: Cyberpope67(at)yahoo(dot)com

PS This post specially encoded for verification purposes


Ivan Gowch <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
IG> On 12 Mar 2006 21:20:30 GMT, Nobody <***@home.anymore> wrote:
IG>
IG> ==>brian daily wrote:
IG> ==>> How about now. If Iraqi when you hear a US patrol coming you get
IG> ==>> off the road. A boy with his bicycle did just that. He dropped his
IG> ==>> bike loaded down with firewood beside the road and ran into the
IG> ==>> ditch to hide. The US Patrol stopped before they got to the bike
IG> ==>> and lobbed several grenades into the ditch killing the boy. THEN
IG> ==>> they fired on the bike. When the wood didn't explode they drove on
IG> ==>> running over the bike with their Hummers and laughing.
IG> ==>> All this witnessed by a dozen people.
IG>
IG> ==>I would sure like to see your sources for information. Before you jump
IG> ==>through you ass and start calling me names, I never heard that story.
IG>
IG> You never heard it, so it can't be true, right?
IG>
IG> ==>IF it is true, I would like to see proof that it isn't just another of
IG> ==>your 'bad dreams' put to words.
IG>
IG> Glad to oblige, asshole. (I couldn't find the
IG> bicycle story either, but that doesn't mean it
IG> didn't happen. No matter, the following is
IG> horrific enough for anyone who has a shred
IG> of humanity left.)
IG>
IG>
IG> Published on Monday, August 4, 2003 by the Boston Globe
IG>
IG> Bitterness Grows in Iraq Over Deaths of Civilians
IG> by Vivienne Walt
IG>
IG> BAGHDAD -- It was 10:30 on a sweltering night when 12-year-old
IG> Mohammed al-Kubaisi climbed the concrete steps leading to his family's
IG> rooftop. The boy held two blankets so that he and his twin brother,
IG> Moustafa, could curl up together on the roof for the night, one of
IG> their favorite summer habits.
IG>
IG> Mohammed had just reached the top when he turned to watch the military
IG> maneuvers on the street below: American soldiers were patrolling with
IG> rifles. One soldier looked up in the darkness and saw a figure on the
IG> roof, watching him.
IG>
IG> A single bullet exploded into the air.
IG>
IG>
IG> Wafa Abdul Latif holds a photo of her 12-year-old son, shot dead when
IG> he peeked over their Baghdad rooftop at patrolling U.S. troops.
IG>
IG> Mohammed's mother recalled dragging her son inside and screaming as
IG> she held him, his blood pouring onto the floor. She said Mohammed was
IG> struggling to breathe when a group of US soldiers slammed through the
IG> front door and pushed her aside as they searched the house.
IG>
IG> ''There were two patrols walking from different directions,'' Wafa
IG> Abdul Latif, 44, said in her living room, clutching a large, framed
IG> portrait of Mohammed. ''One patrol group thought the shot had come
IG> from inside the house.''
IG>
IG> The second group had burst in after hearing the shot aimed at
IG> Mohammed, figuring a weapon had been fired from the home.
IG>
IG> The death of one boy on June 26 is an almost-forgotten story as US
IG> forces continue to face deadly attacks by armed insurgents. But Iraqis
IG> say the regularity of deaths among their own has hardened people's
IG> feelings regarding the American occupation.
IG>
IG> In numerous interviews, Iraqis said that more than factors like
IG> unemployment, fuel shortages, or electricity blackouts, civilian
IG> casualties since the war's end have raised the level of bitterness
IG> against US soldiers and could prolong or widen armed resistance.
IG>
IG> ''It has increased our hate against Americans,'' said Ali Hatem, 23, a
IG> computer science student at the University of Baghdad. ''It also
IG> increases the violence against them. In Iraq, we are tribal people.
IG> When someone loses their son, they want revenge.''
IG>
IG> Neither Iraqis nor American forces keep statistics for dead civilians
IG> like Mohammed, whose shooting the US military calls a tragic accident.
IG> At least three Iraqis were killed in western Baghdad's elegant Mansour
IG> district on July 27, when US soldiers from Task Force 20 opened fire
IG> on cars that overshot a military cordon. The drivers apparently had
IG> missed the cordon when they turned into the area from an unblocked
IG> side street.
IG>
IG> In late April, soldiers from the 82d Airborne Division shot dead 13
IG> Iraqis when they opened fire on protesters in the town of Fallujah,
IG> about 50 miles west of Baghdad. Soldiers fired on another
IG> demonstration on June 18 at the gates of the Republican Palace in
IG> Baghdad, killing at least two people. In both those cases, US forces
IG> said they believed they were being fired upon by armed insurgents
IG> hidden in the crowd.
IG>
IG> US officials have expressed regret that innocent people have been
IG> caught in the crossfire of the ongoing conflict.
IG>
IG> ''I'm working very hard to ensure that with our tactics we aren't
IG> alienating the Iraqi people,'' Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez,
IG> commander of US forces in Iraq, said Thursday. When asked whether
IG> officers had apologized to the families of five Iraqis killed during a
IG> botched raid in Mansour on July 27, Sanchez said, ''Apologies are not
IG> something that we have as a normal procedure in the military
IG> processes.''
IG>
IG> The US military generally refuses to provide compensation to survivors
IG> of Iraqis killed in the crossfire or through misunderstandings,
IG> whether at military checkpoints or during patrols. Such cases are
IG> regarded as occurring during combat and thus are ineligible for
IG> compensation under US military laws enacted during World War II.
IG>
IG>
IG> Iraqi's stand next to a civilian car which was damaged after US
IG> soldiers fired at it at a check-point near Al Gailani mosque in
IG> Baghdad, Iraq, Thursday, July 24,2003. Two Iraqis were killed in the
IG> incident. (AP Photo/Sergei Grits)
IG>
IG> ''Our soldiers are conducting combat operations,'' said Colonel Marc
IG> Warren, the senior US military lawyer in Iraq. ''We are still engaged
IG> in combat operations.''
IG>
IG> But the military has launched an internal investigation into
IG> Mohammed's death ''because it involved a 12-year-old boy,'' Warren
IG> said yesterday.
IG>
IG> Some of those mourning their relatives say they feel pained that US
IG> soldiers have not offered compensation or apologies. Compensation,
IG> usually in the form of money, is an Iraqi tradition when a killing
IG> occurs. Among several Iraqi tribes, a retaliatory killing is expected.
IG> ''No Americans have visited us to speak about what happened,'' said
IG> Moustafa Ahmed, 28, who says his 24-year-old brother, Uday Ahmed, was
IG> shot by a soldier from the 82d Airborne Division. ''And we don't feel
IG> we can go speak to them.'' His brother was killed July 9.
IG>
IG> Uday had been fixing a neighbor's car to earn money. He walked a few
IG> blocks from his house in the southwest Baghdad district of Saidiya to
IG> an auto repair yard to look for a spare part. Walking across the yard,
IG> he held the car's ignition distributor, a metal object about the size
IG> and shape of a hand grenade.
IG>
IG> He was clearly visible from the roof of the Dorah Police Station that
IG> abuts the repair yard. There, 82d Airborne soldiers are posted behind
IG> sandbags, rifles at the ready.
IG>
IG> From atop the roof, a soldier spotted Uday Ahmed and fired. Details of
IG> what happened came from several witnesses in the yard who were
IG> interviewed Thursday.
IG>
IG> ''I heard the bang of a rifle shot and swung around,'' said Ali
IG> Hassan, 40, who runs an outdoor falafel stand about 20 feet from where
IG> Uday stood. ''This man was holding a car part. He doubled over
IG> bleeding and then glanced up.
IG>
IG> ''At that moment, a second shot came from the roof of the police
IG> station,'' he said. ''It hit him, and he dropped. There was blood
IG> everywhere.''
IG>
IG> The soldiers posted at the Dorah Police Station would not comment on
IG> Uday Ahmed's death and referred a reporter to the division's base two
IG> blocks away. Commanders there declined to discuss the case. In the
IG> case of 12-year-old Mohammed, soldiers visited the family to
IG> apologize.
IG>
IG> ''They asked us what compensation we wanted,'' Latif, his mother,
IG> said. ''My husband was incensed. He said he wanted 10 of their men to
IG> die in exchange.''
IG>
IG> The couple say the visitors told them a soldier had been arrested for
IG> their son's death. A military spokesman, Colonel Guy Shields, denied
IG> that. Colonel Warren said the soldier who shot Mohammed was from the
IG> 82d Airborne.
IG>
IG> Family members insist the boy's death was not an accident. They say
IG> Mohammed could have been saved that night, if it had not been for the
IG> unyielding soldiers at a checkpoint in the Hay al-Jihad district in
IG> south Baghdad. ''I tried to rush him to the hospital in my car,'' said
IG> a neighbor, 17-year-old Yaser Ala'. ''They stopped us at the
IG> checkpoint because it was nearly curfew time.''
IG>
IG> Ala' drove back to the house, where Mohammed bled to death in the car.
IG> They left the boy there until the curfew lifted at dawn, then drove to
IG> the hospital to confirm his death.
IG>
IG> Details of Mohammed's death were cited in a report released July 23 by
IG> Amnesty International. The London-based organization said its
IG> researchers in Iraq had determined that US forces were at times
IG> trigger-happy and were ill prepared for policing Iraq.
IG>
IG> Unable to accept the death of his identical twin, Moustafa al-Kubaisi
IG> recently moved to his aunt's house, saying he could not bear being at
IG> home. In late July, he pooled his savings of 10,000 dinars, about $8,
IG> and bought a bicycle as a tribute for his dead brother.
IG>
IG> © Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company
IG>
--
.
from gapope(at)vcn(dot)bc(dot)ca << Official Reply Address for Usenet Post
.
prodigal1
2006-03-12 23:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:

> Not saying what was done was right, but it was nothing compared to the crimes of our
> opponents.

ah so because the Americans are dishing up "torture-light" rather than
"torture-regular", it's okay with you
g***@vcn.bc.ca
2006-03-13 06:52:16 UTC
Permalink
prodigal1 <***@l1.com> wrote:
P> ah so because the Americans are dishing up "torture-light" rather than
P> "torture-regular", it's okay with you

Don't be fooled -- the Merkans are dishing up torture-extreme, too, but they've
purposely allowed the 'light' to leak so as to slowly acclimatize the American
public that their leaders authorize torture (it's just a word at this point)


--

Because I care,

|<+]::-( ("Cyberpope," the Bishop of ROM!)
(aka Reverend George A. Pope)
(Please quote with "gapope wrote...")
-=-
In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
in all things, charity. -- Baxter quoting Augustine
-=-
note new preferred reply email: Cyberpope67(at)yahoo(dot)com

PS This post specially encoded for verification purposes
--
.
from gapope(at)vcn(dot)bc(dot)ca << Official Reply Address for Usenet Post
.
Mellocon
2006-03-12 11:13:00 UTC
Permalink
brian daily <***@address.here> wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> >> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> >> places that haven't made headlines.
> >
> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>
> Alzheimer patent are you?
>
If the American military says there is no murder at Guantanimo, Bob thinks we
should take their word for it because he trusts them. The numerous deaths
reported there were just unfortunate accidents. They really need to fix that
railing in the stair well.






-























*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
GaryRock
2006-03-12 13:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Brian Dead Brain.
GR
"brian daily" <***@address.here> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the
>>> other
>>> places that haven't made headlines.
>>
>>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>
> Alzheimer patent are you?
Boy Toy
2006-03-12 04:50:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message <***@sympatico.ca>

>
>
>TC wrote:
>
>> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>>
>> I say so what?
>>
>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>> places that haven't made headlines.
>
>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.

Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:

Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
By Greg Mitchell
Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET

NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
"blatantly sadistic." ...

>>
>>
>> Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
>> torture.
>>
>> In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
>> men, women or children.
>>
>> If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!
>>
>> Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
>> started it and even AGREE with the practice!
>>
>> No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a nail
>> pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.
>>
>> Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.
>>
>> --
>> ***************************
>> Socialist 'Max the Canuck' on
>> Tues, Mar 22 2005 3:05 pm said to a conservative poster:
>>
>> "Since I'm a left wing feller, I wanna make sure you look as bad as
>> possible."
"KATO"
2006-03-12 05:27:19 UTC
Permalink
"Boy Toy" <***@Toyz4Boyz.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> message <***@sympatico.ca>
>
>>
>>
>>TC wrote:
>>
>>> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>>>
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>>>
>>> I say so what?
>>>
>>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the
>>> other
>>> places that haven't made headlines.
>>
>>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>
> Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
>
> Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
> By Greg Mitchell
> Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
>
> NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
> abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
> claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
> senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
> Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
> "blatantly sadistic." ...
>
>>>
>>>
>>> Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season
>>> for
>>> torture.
>>>
>>> In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour
>>> on
>>> men, women or children.
>>>
>>> If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!
>>>
>>> Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
>>> started it and even AGREE with the practice!
>>>
>>> No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a
>>> nail
>>> pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.
>>>
>>> Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ***************************
>>> Socialist 'Max the Canuck' on
>>> Tues, Mar 22 2005 3:05 pm said to a conservative poster:
>>>
>>> "Since I'm a left wing feller, I wanna make sure you look as bad as
>>> possible."
>

www.boytoyvideos.com


--
"You gotta be smarter than your oponant."

---- Big Dumb Dave. (***@yahoo.com)

"Members of the 3rd right (Nazi/facist)?"

---- Scotty a.k.a. mr. third right. (***@canada.com)

.--------------------------------------.
( BAHHHH! KATO is an friend too )
( my rear end BAHHHHH! )
`--------------------------------------'
, ,/
***@O
@ @@@
@@@@@
@@@@@
|| ||
Schweppervescence
2006-03-12 05:28:57 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@Toyz4Boyz.com
says...
>
>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in
>message <***@sympatico.ca>
>
>>
>>
>>TC wrote:
>>
>>> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>>>
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>>>
>>> I say so what?
>>>
>>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the
other
>>> places that haven't made headlines.
>>
>>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>
>Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
>
>Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
>By Greg Mitchell
>Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
>
>NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
>abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
>claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
>senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
>Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
>"blatantly sadistic." ...
>
>>>

Well, nobody has been tried for murder, and they investigated the abu ghraib
thing to death... sorry to burst your morbid bubble.
Schweppervescence
2006-03-12 05:31:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <tkOQf.17250$***@edtnps90>, ***@schweep.com says...
>
>In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@Toyz4Boyz.com
>says...
>>
>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in
>>message <***@sympatico.ca>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>TC wrote:
>>>
>>>> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>>>>
>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>>>>
>>>> I say so what?
>>>>
>>>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>>>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the
>other
>>>> places that haven't made headlines.
>>>
>>>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>>
>>Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
>>
>>Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
>>By Greg Mitchell
>>Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
>>
>>NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
>>abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
>>claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
>>senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
>>Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
>>"blatantly sadistic." ...
>>
>>>>
>
>Well, nobody has been tried for murder, and they investigated the abu ghraib
>thing to death... sorry to burst your morbid bubble.
>
>

oh wait, here's one:

"It was discovered that one prisoner, Manadel al-Jamadi, died as a result of
abuse, a death that was ruled a homicide by the military."
g***@vcn.bc.ca
2006-03-13 12:52:28 UTC
Permalink
***@schweep.com (Schweppervescence) wrote:
S> In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@Toyz4Boyz.
S> says...
S> >
S> >On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in
S> >message <***@sympatico.ca>
S> >
S> >>
S> >>
S> >>TC wrote:
S> >>
S> >>> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
S> >>>
S> >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
S> >>>
S> >>> I say so what?
S> >>>
S> >>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
S> >>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the
S> other
S> >>> places that haven't made headlines.
S> >>
S> >>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
S> >
S> >Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
S> >
S> >Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
S> >By Greg Mitchell
S> >Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
S> >
S> >NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
S> >abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
S> >claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
S> >senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
S> >Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
S> >"blatantly sadistic." ...
S> >
S> >>>
S>
S> Well, nobody has been tried for murder, and they investigated the abu ghra
S> thing to death... sorry to burst your morbid bubble.

If even the Republicans admit that murder took place, when they are the ones
who stand to be hurt by such admission, it's pretty indicative that murder took
place!

The fact there's been no trial just means that it's not an election year, so no
need to have any silly accountability!


--

Because I care,

|<+]::-( ("Cyberpope," the Bishop of ROM!)
(aka Reverend George A. Pope)
(Please quote with "gapope wrote...")
-=-
In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
in all things, charity. -- Baxter quoting Augustine
-=-
note new preferred reply email: Cyberpope67(at)yahoo(dot)com

PS This post specially encoded for verification purposes
--
.
from gapope(at)vcn(dot)bc(dot)ca << Official Reply Address for Usenet Post
.
Schweppervescence
2006-03-14 01:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Try to keep up ok moron? Oh yeah, I'm requesting the impossible.

In article <dv3puc$a23$***@vcn.bc.ca>, ***@vcn.bc.ca says...
>
>***@schweep.com (Schweppervescence) wrote:
>S> In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@Toyz4Boyz.
>S> says...
>S> >
>S> >On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:20:09 -0500, Bob <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in
>S> >message <***@sympatico.ca>
>S> >
>S> >>
>S> >>
>S> >>TC wrote:
>S> >>
>S> >>> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>S> >>>
>S> >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>S> >>>
>S> >>> I say so what?
>S> >>>
>S> >>> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>S> >>> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the
>S> other
>S> >>> places that haven't made headlines.
>S> >>
>S> >>Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>S> >
>S> >Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
>S> >
>S> >Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
>S> >By Greg Mitchell
>S> >Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
>S> >
>S> >NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
>S> >abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
>S> >claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
>S> >senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
>S> >Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
>S> >"blatantly sadistic." ...
>S> >
>S> >>>
>S>
>S> Well, nobody has been tried for murder, and they investigated the abu ghra
>S> thing to death... sorry to burst your morbid bubble.
>
>If even the Republicans admit that murder took place, when they are the ones
>who stand to be hurt by such admission, it's pretty indicative that murder
took
>place!
>
>The fact there's been no trial just means that it's not an election year, so
no
>need to have any silly accountability!
>
>
>--
>
>Because I care,
>
>|<+]::-( ("Cyberpope," the Bishop of ROM!)
>(aka Reverend George A. Pope)
> (Please quote with "gapope wrote...")
>-=-
>In essentials, unity;
>In non-essentials, liberty;
>in all things, charity. -- Baxter quoting Augustine
>-=-
>note new preferred reply email: Cyberpope67(at)yahoo(dot)com
>
>PS This post specially encoded for verification purposes
>--
>.
>from gapope(at)vcn(dot)bc(dot)ca << Official Reply Address for Usenet Post
>.
>
Bob
2006-03-12 05:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Boy Toy wrote:

> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>
> Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
>
> Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
> By Greg Mitchell
> Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
>
> NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
> abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
> claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
> senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
> Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
> "blatantly sadistic." ...

No one was charged with murder!!!!!!

QUOTE
Private First Class Lynndie England
Lawyers for England on Saturday renewed a request for top US
government and military officials, including Vice President Dick
Cheney and Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to be called
to testify at the hearing into prisoner abuse that shocked the
Arab world.

England, 21, is charged with 19 counts of prisoner abuse,
committing indecent acts and disobeying orders.

She became the symbol of the abuse scandal with the
release of dozens of photographs taken at Abu Ghraib
including ones showing her holding a naked prisoner on
a leash and pointing gleefully at the genitals of another naked inmate.

She faces up to 38 years in prison if convicted on all charges.
UNQUOTE
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CDC7D644-9E86-4949-8410-CEFCB4C39243.htm

Not a single mention of murder!!! Plenty of sexual humiliation
but no murder. I love the way you propaganda bastards twist
the facts to suit your own twisted thinking.
f***@mts.net
2006-03-12 06:06:36 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:35:36 -0500, Bob
<***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>
>Boy Toy wrote:
>
>> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
>>
>> Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
>>
>> Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
>> By Greg Mitchell
>> Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
>>
>> NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
>> abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
>> claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
>> senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
>> Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
>> "blatantly sadistic." ...
>
>No one was charged with murder!!!!!!
>
>QUOTE
>Private First Class Lynndie England
>Lawyers for England on Saturday renewed a request for top US
>government and military officials, including Vice President Dick
>Cheney and Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to be called
>to testify at the hearing into prisoner abuse that shocked the
>Arab world.
>
>England, 21, is charged with 19 counts of prisoner abuse,
>committing indecent acts and disobeying orders.
>
>She became the symbol of the abuse scandal with the
>release of dozens of photographs taken at Abu Ghraib
>including ones showing her holding a naked prisoner on
>a leash and pointing gleefully at the genitals of another naked inmate.
>
>She faces up to 38 years in prison if convicted on all charges.
>UNQUOTE
>http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CDC7D644-9E86-4949-8410-CEFCB4C39243.htm
>
>Not a single mention of murder!!! Plenty of sexual humiliation
>but no murder. I love the way you propaganda bastards twist
>the facts to suit your own twisted thinking.
>
>

Ok, she's only a Private First Class, it hasn't been stated that she
was military police, or military intelligence that were in direct care
and control of the Abu Ghraib prison.
I believe someone high up is up to their neck in shit because of this
fiasco, and the military are using her as a scapegoat because she
should not of had access to prisoners, or of even been there.
Bob
2006-03-12 16:16:34 UTC
Permalink
***@mts.net wrote:

> X-No-Archive: Yes On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:35:36 -0500, Bob
> <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Boy Toy wrote:
> >
> >> >Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.
> >>
> >> Google "Abu Ghraib murder" and the first hit is:
> >>
> >> Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos
> >> By Greg Mitchell
> >> Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET
> >>
> >> NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee
> >> abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government
> >> claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican
> >> senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and
> >> Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were
> >> "blatantly sadistic." ...
> >
> >No one was charged with murder!!!!!!
> >
> >QUOTE
> >Private First Class Lynndie England
> >Lawyers for England on Saturday renewed a request for top US
> >government and military officials, including Vice President Dick
> >Cheney and Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to be called
> >to testify at the hearing into prisoner abuse that shocked the
> >Arab world.
> >
> >England, 21, is charged with 19 counts of prisoner abuse,
> >committing indecent acts and disobeying orders.
> >
> >She became the symbol of the abuse scandal with the
> >release of dozens of photographs taken at Abu Ghraib
> >including ones showing her holding a naked prisoner on
> >a leash and pointing gleefully at the genitals of another naked inmate.
> >
> >She faces up to 38 years in prison if convicted on all charges.
> >UNQUOTE
> >http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CDC7D644-9E86-4949-8410-CEFCB4C39243.htm
> >
> >Not a single mention of murder!!! Plenty of sexual humiliation
> >but no murder. I love the way you propaganda bastards twist
> >the facts to suit your own twisted thinking.
> >
> >
>
> Ok, she's only a Private First Class, it hasn't been stated that she
> was military police, or military intelligence that were in direct care
> and control of the Abu Ghraib prison.
> I believe someone high up is up to their neck in shit because of this
> fiasco, and the military are using her as a scapegoat because she
> should not of had access to prisoners, or of even been there.

I could not deny that there was participation from a lot higher level.

Privates don't run prisons. HOWEVER! Like I said before:
Quote
Not a single mention of murder!!! Plenty of sexual humiliation
but no murder.
Unquote
g***@vcn.bc.ca
2006-03-13 12:52:29 UTC
Permalink
***@mts.net wrote:
> Ok, she's only a Private First Class, it hasn't been stated that she
> was military police, or military intelligence that were in direct care
> and control of the Abu Ghraib prison.
> I believe someone high up is up to their neck in shit because of this
> fiasco, and the military are using her as a scapegoat because she
> should not of had access to prisoners, or of even been there.

And England is cute, so very few Americans are going to REALLY believe she did
anything so terrible as torture/murder!
And in their collective mind, if SHE is innocent, then most likely there was
nothing to ANY of the charges!


--

Because I care,

|<+]::-( ("Cyberpope," the Bishop of ROM!)
(aka Reverend George A. Pope)
(Please quote with "gapope wrote...")
-=-
In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
in all things, charity. -- Baxter quoting Augustine
-=-
note new preferred reply email: Cyberpope67(at)yahoo(dot)com

PS This post specially encoded for verification purposes
--
.
from gapope(at)vcn(dot)bc(dot)ca << Official Reply Address for Usenet Post
.
g***@hotmail.com
2006-03-12 19:18:29 UTC
Permalink
You want homicide Bob here is homicide. The US govt is killing and
torturing ppl. The ppl who are doing this are evil and fully deserving
of punishment. The US govt did the same thing during the Vietnam war
and they still lost it and the lives of over 50,000 soldiers.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/051114fa_fact
A DEADLY INTERROGATION
Can the C.I.A. legally kill a prisoner?
by JANE MAYER
Issue of 2005-11-14
Posted 2005-11-07


At the end of a secluded cul-de-sac, in a fast-growing Virginia suburb
favored by employees of the Central Intelligence Agency, is a handsome
replica of an old-fashioned farmhouse, with a white-railed front porch.
The large back yard has a swimming pool, which, on a recent October
afternoon, was neatly covered. In the driveway were two cars, a
late-model truck, and an all-terrain vehicle. The sole discordant note
was struck by a faded American flag on the porch; instead of fluttering
in the autumn breeze, it was folded on a heap of old Christmas
ornaments.

The house belongs to Mark Swanner, a forty-six-year-old C.I.A. officer
who has performed interrogations and polygraph tests for the agency,
which has employed him at least since the nineteen-nineties. (He is not
a covert operative.) Two years ago, at Abu Ghraib prison, outside
Baghdad, an Iraqi prisoner in Swanner's custody, Manadel al-Jamadi,
died during an interrogation. His head had been covered with a plastic
bag, and he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his
ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have
examined the case, he asphyxiated. In a subsequent internal
investigation, United States government authorities classified
Jamadi's death as a "homicide," meaning that it resulted from
unnatural causes. Swanner has not been charged with a crime and
continues to work for the agency.

After September 11th, the Justice Department fashioned secret legal
guidelines that appear to indemnify C.I.A. officials who perform
aggressive, even violent interrogations outside the United States.
Techniques such as waterboarding-the near-drowning of a
suspect-have been implicitly authorized by an Administration that
feels that such methods may be necessary to win the war on terrorism.
(In 2001, Vice-President Dick Cheney, in an interview on "Meet the
Press," said that the government might have to go to "the dark
side" in handling terrorist suspects, adding, "It's going to be
vital for us to use any means at our disposal.") The harsh treatment
of Jamadi and other prisoners in C.I.A. custody, however, has inspired
an emotional debate in Washington, raising questions about what limits
should be placed on agency officials who interrogate foreign terrorist
suspects outside U.S. territory.

This fall, in response to the exposure of widespread prisoner abuse at
American detention facilities abroad-among them Abu Ghraib;
Guantánamo Bay, in Cuba; and Bagram Air Base, in Afghanistan-John
McCain, the Republican senator from Arizona, introduced a bill in
Congress that would require Americans holding prisoners abroad to
follow the same standards of humane treatment required at home by the
U.S. Constitution. Prisoners must not be brutalized, the bill states,
regardless of their "nationality or physical location." On October
5th, in a rebuke to President Bush, who strongly opposed McCain's
proposal, the Senate voted 90-9 in favor of it.

Senior Administration officials have led a fierce, and increasingly
visible, fight to protect the C.I.A.'s classified interrogation
protocol. Late last month, Cheney and Porter Goss, the C.I.A. director,
had an unusual forty-five-minute private meeting on Capitol Hill with
Senator McCain, who was tortured as a P.O.W. during the Vietnam War.
They argued that the C.I.A. sometimes needs the "flexibility" to
treat detainees in the war on terrorism in "cruel, inhuman, and
degrading" ways. Cheney sought to add an exemption to McCain's
bill, permitting brutal methods when "such operations are vital to
the protection of the United States or its citizens from terrorist
attack." A Washington Post editorial decried Cheney's visit,
calling him the "Vice-President for Torture." In the coming weeks,
a conference committee of the House and the Senate will decide whether
McCain's proposal becomes law; three of the nine senators who voted
against the measure are on the committee.

The outcome of this wider political debate may play a role in
determining the fate of Swanner, whose name has not been publicly
disclosed before, and who declined several requests to be interviewed.
Passage of the McCain legislation by both Houses of Congress would mean
that there is strong political opposition to the abusive treatment of
prisoners, and would put increased pressure on the Justice Department
to prosecute interrogators like Swanner-who could conceivably be
charged with assault, negligent manslaughter, or torture. Swanner's
lawyer, Nina Ginsberg, declined to discuss his case on the record. But
he has been under investigation by the Justice Department for more than
a year.

Manadel al-Jamadi was captured by Navy SEALs at 2 a.m. on November 4,
2003, after a violent struggle at his house, outside Baghdad. Jamadi
savagely fought one of the SEALs before being subdued in his kitchen;
during the altercation, his stove fell on them. The C.I.A. had
identified him as a "high-value" target, because he had allegedly
supplied the explosives used in several atrocities perpetrated by
insurgents, including the bombing of the Baghdad headquarters of the
International Committee of the Red Cross, in October, 2003. After being
removed from his house, Jamadi was manhandled by several of the SEALs,
who gave him a black eye and a cut on his face; he was then transferred
to C.I.A. custody, for interrogation at Abu Ghraib. According to
witnesses, Jamadi was walking and speaking when he arrived at the
prison. He was taken to a shower room for interrogation. Some
forty-five minutes later, he was dead.

For most of the time that Jamadi was being interrogated at Abu Ghraib,
there were only two people in the room with him. One was an
Arabic-speaking translator for the C.I.A. working on a private
contract, who has been identified in military-court papers only as
"Clint C." He was given immunity against criminal prosecution in
exchange for his coöperation. The other person was Mark Swanner.

In the spring of 2004, the fact of pervasive prisoner abuse at Abu
Ghraib became public, on "60 Minutes II" and in a series of
articles in these pages by Seymour M. Hersh. Photographs, taken by U.S.
soldiers, that showed Iraqi prisoners being hooded, sexually
humiliated, and threatened with dogs were published around the world.
One of the most harrowing images was of Jamadi's severely battered
corpse, which had been wrapped in plastic and put on ice; he became
known in the media as the Ice Man.

Around this time, John Helgerson, the C.I.A.'s inspector general,
sent investigators to Iraq and San Diego to interview witnesses about
the agency's role in Jamadi's death. These investigators determined
that there was the possibility of criminality-the threshold level
required by the intelligence agency in order for the case to be
referred to the Justice Department. The agency did so, and officials in
the Justice Department then forwarded the case to the office of Paul
McNulty, the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, which
has jurisdiction over C.I.A. headquarters. The dossier has been there
for more than a year. A lawyer familiar with the case, who asked not to
be named, said that the Swanner file seemed to be "lying kind of
fallow."

A spokeswoman for McNulty said that he would have no comment on the
case, because it was still under investigation. (Last month, President
Bush nominated McNulty to the position of Deputy Attorney General, the
second most powerful job in the Justice Department.) No other official
in the Justice Department would discuss on the record why, more than
two years after Jamadi's death, no decision has been made about
pressing charges against anyone.

A government official familiar with the case, who declined to be named,
indicated that establishing guilt in the case might be complicated,
because of Jamadi's rough handling by the SEALs before he entered the
custody of the C.I.A. Yet, in the past two years, several of the Navy
SEALs who captured Jamadi and delivered him to C.I.A. officials have
faced abuse charges in military-justice proceedings, and have been
exonerated. Moreover, three medical experts who have examined
Jamadi's case told me that the injuries he sustained from the SEALs
could not have caused his death.

Fred Hitz, who served as the C.I.A.'s inspector general from 1990 to
1998, and who is now a lecturer in public and international affairs at
Princeton University, said of Bush Administration officials, "I just
think they're playing stall ball." He told me that he had no inside
knowledge of the Swanner case, but he believes that, for numerous
reasons, ranging from protecting national security to avoiding
political embarrassment, Administration officials "would be opposed
to any accountability in this case. They want it to disappear off the
screen." (A spokesman for the C.I.A. said that its internal
investigation into Jamadi's death was "nearly complete," making
it "inappropriate to discuss any of the details.")

John Radsan, a lawyer formerly in the C.I.A's Office of General
Counsel, says, "Along with the usual problems of dealing with
classified information in a criminal case, this could open a can of
worms if a C.I.A. official in this case got indicted-a big fat can of
worms about what set of rules apply to people like Jamadi. The
sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is: What has been authorized? Can
the C.I.A. torture people? A case like this opens up Pandora's
box."



Since September 11, 2001, the C.I.A.'s treatment and interrogation of
terrorist suspects has remained almost entirely hidden from public
view. Human-rights groups estimate that some ten thousand foreign
suspects are being held in U.S. detention facilities in Afghanistan,
Iraq, Cuba, and other countries. A small but unknown part of this
population is in the custody of the C.I.A., which, as Dana Priest
reported recently in the Washington Post, has operated secret prisons
in Thailand and in Eastern Europe. It is also unclear how seriously the
agency deals with allegations of prisoner abuse. The C.I.A. tends to be
careful about following strict legal procedures, including the briefing
of the top-ranking members of the congressional intelligence committees
on its covert activities. But experts could recall no instance of a
C.I.A. officer being tried in a public courtroom for manslaughter or
murder. Thomas Powers, the author of two books about the C.I.A., told
me, "I've never heard of anyone at the C.I.A. being convicted of a
killing." He added that a case such as Jamadi's had awkward
political implications. "Is the C.I.A. capable of addressing an
illegal killing by its own hands?" he asked. "My guess is not."
Whereas the military has subjected itself to a dozen internal
investigations in the aftermath of the Abu Ghraib scandal, and has
punished more than two hundred soldiers for wrongdoing, the agency has
undertaken almost no public self-examination.

The C.I.A. has reportedly been implicated in at least four deaths of
detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq, including that of Jamadi, and has
referred eight potentially criminal cases involving abuse and
misconduct to the Justice Department. In March, Goss, the C.I.A.'s
director, testified before Congress that "we don't do torture,"
and the agency's press office issued a release stating, "All
approved interrogation techniques, both past and present, are lawful
and do not constitute torture. . . . C.I.A. policies on interrogation
have always followed legal guidance from the Department of Justice. If
an individual violates the policy, then he or she will be held
accountable."

Yet the government has brought charges against only one person
affiliated with the agency: David Passaro, a low-level contract
employee, not a full-fledged C.I.A. officer. In 2003, Passaro, while
interrogating an Afghan prisoner, allegedly beat him with a flashlight
so severely that he eventually died from his injuries. In two other
incidents of prisoner abuse, the Times reported last month, charges
probably will not be brought against C.I.A. personnel: the 2003 case of
an Iraqi prisoner who was forced head first into a sleeping bag, then
beaten; and the 2002 abuse of an Afghan prisoner who froze to death
after being stripped and chained to the floor of a concrete cell. (The
C.I.A. supervisor involved in the latter case was subsequently
promoted.)

One reason these C.I.A. officials may not be facing charges is that, in
recent years, the Justice Department has established a strikingly
narrow definition of torture. In August, 2002, the department's
Office of Legal Counsel sent a memo on interrogations to the White
House, which argued that a coercive technique was torture only when it
induced pain equivalent to what a person experiencing death or organ
failure might suffer. By implication, all lesser forms of physical and
psychological mistreatment-what critics have called "torture
lite"-were legal. The memo also said that torture was illegal only
when it could be proved that the interrogator intended to cause the
required level of pain. And it provided interrogators with another
large exemption: torture might be acceptable if an interrogator was
acting in accordance with military "necessity." A source familiar
with the memo's origins, who declined to speak on the record, said
that it "was written as an immunity, a blank check." In 2004, the
"torture memo," as it became known, was leaked, complicating the
nomination of Alberto R. Gonzales to be Attorney General; as White
House counsel, Gonzales had approved the memo. The Administration
subsequently revised the guidelines, using language that seemed more
restrictive. But a little-noticed footnote protected the coercive
methods permitted by the "torture memo," stating that they did not
violate the "standards set forth in this memorandum."

The Bush Administration has resisted disclosing the contents of two
Justice Department memos that established a detailed interrogation
policy for the Pentagon and the C.I.A. A March, 2003, classified memo
was "breathtaking," the same source said. The document dismissed
virtually all national and international laws regulating the treatment
of prisoners, including war-crimes and assault statutes, and it was
radical in its view that in wartime the President can fight enemies by
whatever means he sees fit. According to the memo, Congress has no
constitutional right to interfere with the President in his role as
Commander-in-Chief, including making laws that limit the ways in which
prisoners may be interrogated. Another classified Justice Department
memo, issued in August, 2002, is said to authorize numerous
"enhanced" interrogation techniques for the C.I.A. These two memos
sanction such extreme measures that, even if the agency wanted to
discipline or prosecute agents who stray beyond its own comfort level,
the legal tools to do so may no longer exist. Like the torture memo,
these documents are believed to have been signed by Jay Bybee, the
former head of the Office of Legal Counsel, but written by a Justice
Department lawyer, John Yoo, who is now a professor of law at Berkeley.


For nearly a year, Democratic senators critical of alleged abuses have
been demanding to see these memos. "We need to know what was
authorized," Carl Levin, a Democrat from Michigan, told me. "Was it
waterboarding? The use of dogs? Stripping detainees? . . . The refusal
to give us these documents is totally inexcusable." Levin is a member
of the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is supposed to have an
oversight role in relation to the C.I.A. "The Administration is
getting away with just saying no," he went on. "There's no claim
of executive privilege. There's no claim of national
security-we've offered to keep it classified. It's just bullshit.
They just don't want us to know what they're doing, or have
done."



By the summer of 2003, the insurgency against the U.S. occupation of
Iraq had grown into a confounding and lethal insurrection, and the
Pentagon and the White House were pressing C.I.A. agents and members of
the Special Forces to get the kind of intelligence needed to crush it.
On orders from Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, General Geoffrey
Miller, who had overseen coercive interrogations of terrorist suspects
at Guantánamo, imposed similar methods at Abu Ghraib. In October of
that year, however-a month before Jamadi's death-the Justice
Department's Office of Legal Counsel issued an opinion stating that
Iraqi insurgents were covered by the Geneva Conventions, which require
the humane treatment of prisoners and forbid coercive interrogations.
The ruling reversed an earlier interpretation, which had concluded,
erroneously, that Iraqi insurgents were not protected by international
law.

As a result of these contradictory mandates from Washington, the rules
of engagement at Abu Ghraib became muddy, and the tactics grew
increasingly ad hoc. Jeffrey H. Smith, a former general counsel of the
C.I.A., told me, "Abu Ghraib has its roots at the top. I think this
uncertainty about who was and who was not covered by the Geneva
Conventions, and all this talk that they're all terrorists, bred the
climate in which this kind of abuse takes place."

At Abu Ghraib, the confusion over interrogation and detention methods
was compounded by the fact that C.I.A. officials worked side by side
with U.S. military people. Colonel Janis Karpinski, a former commander
of the 800th Military Police Brigade, which oversaw the administration
of Abu Ghraib during the period of widespread abuse, has said that
C.I.A. officers, along with contract interpreters and some
military-intelligence officers, did not wear uniforms when they visited
the prison, and it was not clear, even to her, what they were doing
there. "I thought most of the civilians there were interpreters, but
there were some civilians I didn't know," she told Seymour Hersh.
"I called them disappearing ghosts. . . . They were always bringing
in somebody for interrogation, or waiting to collect somebody going
out." C.I.A. officials, unlike members of the Army and the Navy, are
not bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits
"cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of" prisoners.

Walter Diaz, a military policeman, was on guard duty at Abu Ghraib the
morning that Jamadi was delivered to the prison. He told me, "The
O.G.A."- "other government agencies," initials commonly used to
protect the identity of the C.I.A.-"would bring in people all the
time to interview them. We had one wing, Tier One Alpha, reserved for
the O.G.A. They'd have maybe twenty people there at a time." He
went on, "They were their prisoners. They'd get into a room and
lock it up. We, as soldiers, didn't get involved. We'd lock the
door for them and leave. We didn't know what they were doing." But,
he recalled, "we heard a lot of screaming."

Considering this level of secrecy, it's doubtful that any details
would have emerged about the C.I.A.'s role in Jamadi's death had it
not been for a strange and tangential chain of events. Three months
after Jamadi died, Jeffrey Hopper, a Navy SEAL who had been assigned to
carry out joint operations with the C.I.A. in Baghdad, was accused of
stealing another SEAL's body armor. Hopper, who had been nicknamed
Klepto by the unit, was expelled from the Special Forces. When he was
dismissed, he told authorities that he knew of far worse offenses
committed by other SEALs, and he cited the abuse of several prisoners,
including Jamadi. His accusations formed the basis of multiple charges
against several SEALs, which led to the court-martial of Lieutenant
Andrew Ledford, the commander of the platoon that captured Jamadi, for,
among other things, allowing his troops to assault the prisoner. Last
May, Ledford was acquitted of any wrongdoing; but during the hearings,
which were open, a number of troubling facts spilled out, hinting at
the C.I.A.'s role in Jamadi's death.

Seth Hettena, an Associated Press reporter based in San Diego,
California, attended the hearings. The courtroom testimony, he
reported, indicated that Jamadi, before arriving at Abu Ghraib, was
interrogated "in a rough manner" by a combination of SEALs and
C.I.A. personnel in "the Romper Room," a tiny space in the Navy
camp at Baghdad International Airport. Swanner was among those present.
One of the SEALs testified that after Jamadi was handcuffed a C.I.A.
interrogator rammed "his arm up against the detainee's chest,
pressing on him with all his weight." According to a recent report by
John McChesney on National Public Radio, a C.I.A. guard who witnessed
the scene later told investigators that, after stripping Jamadi and
dousing him in cold water, a C.I.A. interrogator threatened to
"barbecue" him if he didn't talk. Jamadi reportedly moaned,
"I'm dying, I'm dying." The interrogator replied, "You'll
be wishing you were dying."

Court testimony also established that Jamadi was "body-slammed" by
the SEALs into the back of a Humvee before being delivered to Abu
Ghraib. During this time, he was handcuffed. "Was he a threat?" a
Navy prosecutor asked one of the SEALs on trial. "No, ma'am," the
SEAL conceded.

Soon after the Associated Press published Hettena's Romper Room
story, two unidentified officials, evidently from the C.I.A., appeared
in the courtroom. From that point on, Hettena told me, the officials,
who did not give their names, protested when the testimony touched on
matters sensitive to the C.I.A. In many instances, reporters and other
members of the public were required to leave the courtroom. On another
occasion, an unidentified C.I.A. witness testified from behind a blue
curtain. Several areas of questioning by defense lawyers for the SEALs
were ruled off limits. When one of the defense lawyers, Matthew
Freedus, asked a witness, "What position was Jamadi in when he
died?," the C.I.A. representatives protested, saying that the answer
was classified. The same objection was made when a question was asked
about the role that water had played in Jamadi's interrogation.

By late last spring, the SEALs' reputations had been tarnished by the
exposure of their rough treatment of Jamadi, but they were cleared of
the gravest abuse charges. The question of who was responsible for
Jamadi's death remained unanswered. Milt Silverman, one of the
defense attorneys, told me, "Who killed Jamadi? I know it wasn't
any of the SEALs. . . . That's why their cases got dismissed."
Frank Spinner, a civilian lawyer who represented Ledford, said,
"There's a stronger case against the C.I.A. than there is against
Ledford. But the military's being hung out to dry while the C.I.A.
skates. I want a public accounting, whether in a trial, a hearing
before a congressional committee, or a public report. There's got to
be something more meaningful than sticking the case in a Justice
Department drawer."

Spinner and several of the other defense lawyers learned more about the
C.I.A.'s role in Jamadi's death than they were supposed to know,
owing to a classification error made by the agency. The C.I.A. sent
hundreds of pages of material on Jamadi's death to the Navy; much of
it was classified, and all of it was marked unclassified. The pages
were passed on to the civilian lawyers, who read them carefully. The
agency, after realizing its mistake, demanded that the lawyers return
the classified material, and subsequently sealed virtually all the
court records relating to the case. Some of the C.I.A. documents,
however, were seen by a source familiar with the case, who shared their
contents with me.



Manadel al-Jamadi arrived at Abu Ghraib naked from the waist down,
according to an eyewitness, Jason Kenner, an M.P. with the 372nd
Military Police Company. In a statement to C.I.A. investigators, Kenner
recalled that Jamadi had been stripped of his pants, underpants, socks,
and shoes, arriving in only a purple T-shirt and a purple jacket, and
with a green plastic sandbag completely covering his head.
Nevertheless, Kenner told C.I.A. investigators, "the prisoner did not
appear to be in distress. He was walking fine, and his speech was
normal." The plastic "flex cuffs" on Jamadi's wrists were so
tight, however, that Kenner had trouble cutting them off when they were
replaced with steel handcuffs and Jamadi's hands were secured behind
his back.

Staff Sergeant Mark Nagy, a reservist in the 372nd Military Police
Company, was also on duty at Abu Ghraib when Jamadi arrived. According
to the classified internal documents, he told C.I.A. investigators that
Jamadi seemed "lucid," noting that he was "talking during
intake." Nagy said that Jamadi was "not combative" when he was
placed in a holding cell, and that he "responded to commands." In
Nagy's opinion, there was "no need to get physical with him."

Kenner told the investigators that, "minutes" after Jamadi was
placed in the holding cell, an "interrogator"-later identified as
Swanner-began "yelling at him, trying to find where some weapons
were." Kenner said that he could see Jamadi through the open door of
the holding cell, "in a seated position like a scared child." The
yelling went on, he said, for five or ten minutes. At some point,
Kenner said, Swanner and his translator "removed the prisoner's
jacket and shirt," leaving him naked. He added that he saw no
injuries or bruises. Soon afterward, the M.P.s were told by Swanner and
the translator to "take the prisoner to Tier One," the agency's
interrogation wing. The M.P.s dressed Jamadi in a standard-issue orange
jumpsuit, keeping the sandbag over his head, and walked him to the
shower room there for interrogation. Kenner said that Jamadi put up
"no resistance."

On the way, Nagy noticed that Jamadi was "groaning and breathing
heavily, as if he was out of breath." Walter Diaz, the M.P. who had
been on guard duty at the prison, told C.I.A. investigators that Jamadi
showed "no distress or complaints on the way to the shower room."
But he told me that he, too, noticed that Jamadi was having
"breathing problems." An autopsy showed that Jamadi had six
fractured ribs; it is unclear when they were broken. The C.I.A.
officials in charge of Jamadi did not give him even a cursory medical
exam, although the Geneva Conventions require that prisoners receive
"medical attention."

"Jamadi was basically a 'ghost prisoner,' " a former
investigator on the case, who declined to be named, told me. "He
wasn't checked into the facility. People like this, they just bring
'em in, and use the facility for interrogations. The lower-ranking
enlisted guys there just followed the orders from O.G.A. There was no
booking process."

According to Kenner's testimony, when the group reached the shower
room Swanner told the M.P.s that "he did not want the prisoner to sit
and he wanted him shackled to the wall." (No explanation for this
decision is recorded.) There was a barred window on one wall. Kenner
and Nagy, using a pair of leg shackles, attached Jamadi's arms, which
had been placed behind his back, to the bars on the window.

The Associated Press quoted an expert who described the position in
which Jamadi died as a form of torture known as "Palestinian
hanging," in which a prisoner whose hands are secured behind his back
is suspended by his arms. (The technique has allegedly been used in the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) The M.P.s' sworn accounts to
investigators suggest that, at least at first, Jamadi was able to stand
up, without pain: autopsy records show that he was five feet ten, and,
as Diaz explained to me, the window was about five feet off the ground.
The accounts concur that, while Jamadi was able to stand without
discomfort, he couldn't kneel or sit without hanging painfully from
his arms. Once he was secured, the M.P.s left him alone in the room
with Swanner and the translator.

Less than an hour later, Diaz said, he was walking past the shower room
when Swanner came out and asked for help, reportedly saying, "This
guy doesn't want to coöperate." According to the NPR report, one
of the C.I.A. men told investigators that he called for medical help,
but there is no available record of a doctor having been summoned. When
Diaz entered the shower room, he said, he was surprised to see that
Jamadi's knees had buckled, and that he was almost kneeling. Swanner,
he said, wanted the soldiers to reposition Jamadi, so that he would
have to stand more erectly. Diaz called for additional help from two
other soldiers in his company, Sergeant Jeffery Frost and Dennis
Stevanus. But after they had succeeded in making Jamadi stand for a
moment, as requested, by hitching his handcuffs higher up the window,
Jamadi collapsed again. Diaz told me, "At first I was, like, 'This
guy's drunk.' He just dropped down to where his hands were, like,
coming out of his handcuffs. He looked weird. I was thinking, He's
got to be hurting. All of his weight was on his hands and wrists-it
looked like he was about to mess up his sockets."

Swanner, whom Diaz described as a "kind of shabby-looking, overweight
white guy," who was wearing black clothing, was apparently less
concerned. "He was saying, 'He's just playing dead,' " Diaz
recalled. "He thought he was faking. He wasn't worried at all."
While Jamadi hung from his arms, Diaz told me, Swanner "just kept
talking and talking at him. But there was no answer."

Frost told C.I.A. investigators that the interrogator had said that
Jamadi was just "playing possum." But, as Frost lifted Jamadi
upright by his jumpsuit, noticing that it was digging into his crotch,
he thought, This prisoner is pretty good at playing possum. When
Jamadi's body went slack again, Frost recalled commenting that he
"had never seen anyone's arms positioned like that, and he was
surprised they didn't just pop out of their sockets."

Diaz, sensing that something was wrong, lifted Jamadi's hood. His
face was badly bruised. Diaz placed a finger in front of Jamadi's
open eyes, which didn't move or blink, and deduced that he was dead.
When the men lowered Jamadi to the floor, Frost told investigators,
"blood came gushing out of his nose and mouth, as if a faucet had
been turned on."

Swanner, who had seemed so unperturbed, suddenly appeared
"surprised" and "dumbfounded," according to Frost. He began
talking about how Jamadi had fought and resisted the entire way to the
prison. He also made calls on his cell phone. Within minutes, Diaz
said, four or five additional O.G.A. officers, also dressed in black,
arrived on the scene.

Dr. Steven Miles, a medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota,
who is writing a study of U.S. medical practices during the war on
terrorism, has examined the Jamadi incident extensively. He recently
recounted to me what happened that morning: "An Iraqi medical doctor
working with the C.I.A. confirmed Jamadi's death. Captain Donald
Reese, the commander of Abu Ghraib M.P.s, came to the shower room and
heard Colonel Thomas M. Pappas, the commander of military intelligence
at the prison, say, 'I am not going down for this alone.' "

C.I.A. personnel ordered that Jamadi's body be kept in the shower
room until the next morning. The corpse was packed in ice and bound
with tape, apparently in an attempt to slow its decomposition and,
Miles believes, to try to alter the perceived time of death. The ice
was already melting when Specialist Sabrina Harman posed for pictures
while stooping over Jamadi's body, smiling and giving the thumbs-up
sign. The next day, a medic inserted an I.V. in Jamadi's arm, put the
body on a stretcher, and took it out of the prison as if Jamadi were
merely ill, so as to "not upset the other detainees." Other
interrogators, Miles said, "were told that Jamadi had died of a heart
attack." (There is no medical evidence that Jamadi experienced heart
failure.) A military-intelligence officer later recounted that a local
taxi-driver was paid to take away Jamadi's body.

Before leaving, Frost told investigators, Swanner confided that he
"did not get any information out of the prisoner." C.I.A. officials
took with them the bloodied hood that had covered Jamadi's head; it
was later thrown away. "They destroyed evidence, and failed to
preserve the scene of the crime," Spinner, the lawyer for one of the
Navy SEALs, said.

The next day, Swanner gave a statement to Army investigators, stressing
that he hadn't laid a hand on Jamadi, and hadn't done anything
wrong. "Clint C.," the translator, also said that Swanner hadn't
beaten Jamadi. "I don't think anybody intended the guy to die," a
former investigator on the case, who asked not to be identified, told
me. But he believes that the decision to shackle Jamadi to the window
reflected an intent to cause suffering. (Under American and
international law, intent is central to assessing criminality in
war-crimes and torture cases.) The C.I.A., he said, "put him in that
position to get him to talk. They took it that pain equals
coöperation."



The autopsy, performed by military pathologists five days later,
classified Jamadi's death as a homicide, saying that the cause of
death was "compromised respiration" and "blunt force injuries"
to Jamadi's head and torso. But it appears that the pathologists who
performed the autopsy were unaware that Jamadi had been shackled to a
high window. When a description of Jamadi's position was shared with
two of the country's most prominent medical examiners-both of whom
volunteered to review the autopsy report free, at the request of a
lawyer representing one of the SEALs-their conclusion was different.
Miles, independently, concurred.

One of those examiners, Dr. Michael Baden, who is the chief forensic
pathologist for the New York State Police, told me, "What struck me
was that Jamadi was alive and well when he walked into the prison. The
SEALs were accused of causing head injuries before he arrived, but he
had no significant head injuries-certainly no brain injuries that
would have caused death." Jamadi's bruises, he said, were no doubt
painful, but they were not life-threatening. Baden went on, "He also
had injuries to his ribs. You don't die from broken ribs. But if he
had been hung up in this way and had broken ribs, that's
different." In his judgment, "asphyxia is what he died from-as in
a crucifixion." Baden, who had inspected a plastic bag of the type
that was placed over Jamadi's head, said that the bag "could have
impaired his breath, but he couldn't have died from that alone." Of
greater concern, he thought, was Jamadi's position. "If his hands
were pulled up five feet-that's to his neck. That's pretty tough.
That would put a lot of tension on his rib muscles, which are needed
for breathing. It's not only painful-it can hinder the diaphragm
from going up and down, and the rib cage from expanding. The muscles
tire, and the breathing function is impaired, so there's less oxygen
entering the bloodstream." A person in such a state would first lose
consciousness, he said, and eventually would die. The hood, he
suggested, would likely have compounded the problem, because the
interrogators "can't see his face if he's turning blue. We see a
lot about a patient's condition by looking at his face. By putting
that goddam hood on, they can't see if he's conscious." It also
"doesn't permit them to know when he died." The bottom line,
Baden said, is that Jamadi "didn't die as a result of any injury he
got before getting to the prison."

Dr. Cyril Wecht, a medical doctor and a lawyer who is the coroner of
Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, and a former president of the American
Academy of Forensic Sciences, independently reached the same
conclusion. The interpretation put forward by the military
pathologists, he said, "didn't fit with their own report. They said
he died of blunt-force trauma, yet there was no significant evidence of
trauma to the head." Instead, Wecht believes that Jamadi "died of
compromised respiration," and that "the position the body was in
would have been the cause of death." He added, "Mind you, I'm not
a critic of the Iraq war. But I don't think we should reduce
ourselves to the insurgents' barbaric levels."

Walter Diaz told me, "Someone should be charged. If Jamadi was
already handcuffed, there was no reason to treat the guy the way they
did-the way they hung him." Diaz said he didn't know if Swanner
had intended to torture Jamadi, or whether the death was accidental.
But he was troubled by the government's inaction, and by what he saw
as the agency's attempt at a coverup. "They tried to blame the
SEALs. The C.I.A. had a big role in this. But you know the
C.I.A.-who's going to go against them?"



According to Jeffrey Smith, the former general counsel of the C.I.A.,
now a private-practice lawyer who handles national-security cases, a
decision to prosecute Swanner "would probably go all the way up to
the Attorney General." Critics of the Administration, such as John
Sifton, a lawyer for Human Rights Watch, question whether Alberto
Gonzales, who became Attorney General last year, has too many conflicts
of interest to weigh the case against Swanner fairly. Sifton said,
"It's hard to imagine the current leadership pursuing these guys,
because the head of the Justice Department, Alberto Gonzales, is
centrally implicated in crafting the policies that led to the abuse."
He suggested that the prudent thing for Gonzales to do would be to
"recuse himself from such a decision, and leave it to a deputy, or a
career officer."

But there are political conflicts here, too. It is in the office of
Paul McNulty-whose nomination to become Gonzales's deputy will soon
be presented to Congress, and who was a Republican congressional staff
member before being named a U.S. Attorney-that the Jamadi case has
stalled. And Alice Fisher, the new head of the Justice Department's
criminal division, got that job only under a recess appointment; during
her confirmation hearings, Fisher, who previously handled
counter-terrorism cases for the department, refused to provide all the
information requested about her knowledge of C.I.A. prisoner abuse, and
Congress did not approve her nomination.

Even more troubling is the possibility that, under the Bush
Administration's secret interrogation guidelines, the killing of
Jamadi might not have broken any laws. Jeffrey Smith says it's
possible that the Office of Legal Counsel's memos may have opened too
many loopholes for interrogators like Swanner, "making prosecution
somehow too hard to do." Smith added, "But, even under the expanded
definition of torture, I don't see how someone beaten with his hands
bound, who then died while hanging-how that could be legal. I'd be
embarrassed if anyone argued that it was."

Senator Richard Durbin, a Democrat from Illinois, served on the Senate
Intelligence Committee until January. Before his tenure ended, he
looked at the full, classified set of photographs from Abu Ghraib. In a
recent interview at his office in the Capitol, he said, "You can't
imagine what it's like to go to a closed room where you have a
classified briefing, and stand shoulder to shoulder with your
colleagues in the Senate, and see hundreds and hundreds of slides like
those of Abu Ghraib, most of which have never been publicly disclosed.
I had a sick feeling when I left." He went on, "It was then that I
began to have suspicions that something significant was happening at
the highest levels of the government when it came to torture policy."

Since then, Durbin has been trying to close the loopholes that allow
government personnel to engage in brutal interrogations. Last year, he
introduced an amendment to the defense-authorization bill affirming
that the C.I.A. was covered by U.S. laws forbidding torture and the
cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of prisoners. But his effort
met intense resistance from the Bush Administration, and the amendment
did not pass. Durbin tried other legislative stratagems, without much
success. Eventually, John McCain took up Durbin's cause-which led
to last month's confrontation with Cheney and Goss. The Abu Ghraib
scandal seems not to have chastened Cheney or any other Administration
officials; in fact, they are for the first time arguing openly and
explicitly that C.I.A. personnel should be exempt from standards that
apply to every other American.

"I'm concerned that the government isn't going forward on these
prosecutions," Durbin said of the C.I.A. cases. "It's really hard
to follow the Administration's policies here. I think the world was
very simple before 9/11. We knew what the law was, and I understood it
to apply to everyone in the government. Now there's real uncertainty.
There's a shadow over our nation that needs lifting."
TC
2006-03-12 16:32:38 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:***@sympatico.ca...

> Funny..... I don't recall any murder going on there.

Sure, hadn't you heard that some prisoners were tortured to death?

Also, others eventually commit "suicide".
Schweppervescence
2006-03-12 05:24:19 UTC
Permalink
If any torturers are looking for an especially punishing treatment, they should
subject their victims to your postings!

In article <TJMQf.356$***@newsfe18.lga>, ***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com
says...
>
>'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>
>I say so what?
>
>Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>places that haven't made headlines.
>
>Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
>torture.
>
>In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
>men, women or children.
>
>If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!
>
>Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
>started it and even AGREE with the practice!
>
>No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a nail
>pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.
>
>Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.
>
>--
>***************************
>Socialist 'Max the Canuck' on
>Tues, Mar 22 2005 3:05 pm said to a conservative poster:
>
>"Since I'm a left wing feller, I wanna make sure you look as bad as
>possible."
>
>
Tom P.
2006-03-12 06:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Schweppervescence wrote:

> If any torturers are looking for an especially punishing treatment, they should
> subject their victims to your postings!
>
> In article <TJMQf.356$***@newsfe18.lga>, ***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com
> says...
>
>>'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>>
>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>>
>>I say so what?
>>
>>Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>>American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>>places that haven't made headlines.
>>

The Americans have lost any legitamacy as a defender of freedom. The
reason for invading Iraq in the first place keeps changing. Why are they
really there?

At first it was weapons of mass destruction, then it was to chase down
various insurgents and now it is to install democracy in that country.

The Americans first drafted an Constitution and then held elections.

The new Iraqi Constitution: Here is the important part.....

**********************************

Article 109:

First: The federal government with the producing governorates and
regional governments shall undertake the management of oil and gas
extracted from current fields provided that it distributes oil and gas
revenues in a fair manner in proportion to the population distribution
in all parts of the country with a set allotment for a set time for the
damaged regions that were unjustly deprived by the former regime and the
regions that were damaged later on, and in a way that assures balanced
development in different areas of the country, and this will be
regulated by law.

Second: The federal government with the producing regional and
governorate governments shall together formulate the necessary strategic
policies to develop the oil and gas wealth in a way that achieves the
highest benefit to the Iraqi people using the most advanced techniques
of the market principles and encourages investment.

***************************************

Question: Who can provide the most advanced techniques of market principles?

Answer: Multinational oil companies. The constitution does not say the
oil belongs to the people.

The wording of this is in such a way that it sounds beneficial to the
people but, why is oil in the constitution anyway?

The trial of Saddam is another joke. The man deserves to be strung up by
his thumbs, but he is currently not standing trial for his worst crimes.
From what I can see, he is only being tried in the executions of his
opposition.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Iraq_Saddam_Trial.html

He is not standing trial for the gassing of 5000 Kurds. Why?

The answer is because the U.S. supplied him the gas. How does selecting
which crimes he is tried for show representation on behalf of the Iraqi
people? It indicates to me that the Americans are firmly in charge and
the democracy in that country is a myth.
Leftists = traitors
2006-03-12 07:09:35 UTC
Permalink
I tend to agree which is why no Iraqi should be given quarter. They
should be executed
on the spot if they even look suspicious. For every American who dies,
10-50 Iraqis
should be selected at random for execution. What this will do is
convince the population
to stop harbouring the insurgents. The only way to control this
situation is to use methods
that Arabs understand and that has always been force.
If the German army from the Third Reich were in Iraq, the problem of
insurgents would be
solved very quickly.
brian daily
2006-03-12 07:15:12 UTC
Permalink
On 11 Mar 2006 23:09:35 -0800, "Leftists = traitors" <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I tend to agree which is why no Iraqi should be given quarter. They
>should be executed
>on the spot if they even look suspicious. For every American who dies,
>10-50 Iraqis
>should be selected at random for execution.

The US military is doing that now..every day. They executed thousands of
innocent men women and children in Falluja alone.
GaryRock
2006-03-12 13:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Brian Dead Brain.
GR
"brian daily" <***@address.here> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On 11 Mar 2006 23:09:35 -0800, "Leftists = traitors"
> <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I tend to agree which is why no Iraqi should be given quarter. They
>>should be executed
>>on the spot if they even look suspicious. For every American who dies,
>>10-50 Iraqis
>>should be selected at random for execution.
>
> The US military is doing that now..every day. They executed thousands of
> innocent men women and children in Falluja alone.
>
TC
2006-03-12 16:31:12 UTC
Permalink
"Leftists = traitors" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:***@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> I tend to agree which is why no Iraqi should be given quarter. They
> should be executed
> on the spot if they even look suspicious. For every American who dies,
> 10-50 Iraqis
> should be selected at random for execution.

I don't agree with that. America has already garnered enough hate against
itself.

> If the German army from the Third Reich were in Iraq, the problem of
> insurgents would be
> solved very quickly.

I think the American arm of the military industrial complex gets it
blueprint from Nazi tactics, so your Reich scenerio
is already in play.
g***@hotmail.com
2006-03-12 20:21:30 UTC
Permalink
As Leftists=traitors should know both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany
failed although the "leftists" of the Soviet Union lasted longer. The
Nazis of course used brutal repression in Russia and Yugoslavia among
other nations. Their soldiers were castrated when captured. In
Yugoslavia 18 divisions were tied down for the duration of the war and
eventually defeated by the partisans. This despite the fact the Germans
were sometimes killing 100 civilians for the death of a Wehrmacht
soldier.
GaryRock
2006-03-12 13:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Being a gutless little fairy like you TC must be torture.
GR

"TC" <***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com> wrote in message
news:TJMQf.356$***@newsfe18.lga...
> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>
> I say so what?
>
> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the
> other
> places that haven't made headlines.
>
> Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season
> for
> torture.
>
> In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
> men, women or children.
>
> If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!
>
> Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
> started it and even AGREE with the practice!
>
> No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a nail
> pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.
>
> Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.
>
> --
> ***************************
> Socialist 'Max the Canuck' on
> Tues, Mar 22 2005 3:05 pm said to a conservative poster:
>
> "Since I'm a left wing feller, I wanna make sure you look as bad as
> possible."
>
>
TC
2006-03-12 16:50:04 UTC
Permalink
"GaryRock" <***@ever.com> wrote in message
news:_lVQf.23795$***@clgrps12...
> Being a gutless little fairy like you TC must be torture.
> GR

Huh?
h***@hotmail.com
2006-03-12 19:04:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:50:04 -0600, "TC"
<***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com> wrote:

>
>"GaryRock" <***@ever.com> wrote in message
>news:_lVQf.23795$***@clgrps12...
>> Being a gutless little fairy like you TC must be torture.
>> GR
>
>Huh?
>
maybee his racist god will save him
h
u
r
c
Duncan Patton
2006-03-12 13:28:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:34:34 -0600
"TC" <***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com> wrote:

>
> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> places that haven't made headlines.
>
> Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
> torture.

Torture is a political tool to radicalize opposition into something
that can be beaten by it's own irrationality.

It has no value in providing military-quality intelligence.

Dhu

--
???????????????????????????????????????

Open Systems Integration

Contact Fubar the Hack: fubar AT neotext.ca

Area code seven eight zero, Exchange four six six, Local zero one zero nine

Highland terms, Canadian workmanship.

All persons named herein are purely fictional victims
of the Canidian Bagle Breeder's Association.

Save the Bagle!

Sun Dhu


???????????????????????????????????????
Peter D
2006-03-12 20:07:41 UTC
Permalink
"TC" <***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com> wrote in message
news:TJMQf.356$***@newsfe18.lga...
> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'

You are a sick fuck! Torturing _anyone_ is wrong.
Ivan Gowch
2006-03-12 20:05:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:34:34 -0600, "TC"
<***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com> wrote:

==>'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
==>
==>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
==>
==>I say so what?
==>
==>Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
==>American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
==>places that haven't made headlines.
==>
==>Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
==>torture.
==>
==>In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
==>men, women or children.
==>
==>If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!
==>
==>Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
==>started it and even AGREE with the practice!
==>
==>No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a nail
==>pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.
==>
==>Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.


Nicely put. Thanks.
brian daily
2006-03-12 20:26:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:05:48 -0500, Ivan Gowch <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:34:34 -0600, "TC"
><***@DIESPAMDIEflashmail.com> wrote:
>
>==>'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>==>
>==>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>==>
>==>I say so what?
>==>
>==>Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
>==>American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
>==>places that haven't made headlines.
>==>
>==>Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
>==>torture.
>==>
>==>In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
>==>men, women or children.
>==>
>==>If you are AGAINST torture in the USA, then you are now un-American!
>==>
>==>Captured Americans should all *expect* to be tortured. After all, they
>==>started it and even AGREE with the practice!
>==>
>==>No American can even open their yap about one of their own getting a nail
>==>pounded through their sack. You can't dish it and not take it.
>==>
>==>Surveillance, torture and murder is what made America great.
>
>
> Nicely put. Thanks.

There in NO reason for Iraqis to believe the guy wasn't spying for the US.
I pretty sure he wasn't but the CIA has it's people in every organization they
consider anti American.
He was killed because the Iraqis believed him a spy.
The US Military in Iraq kill people every day just because they 'believe' the
person might be a threat to them.

The Iraqi insurgents are playing by AMERICAN rules.
Schweppervescence
2006-03-12 22:20:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@address.here
says...
>
>The Iraqi insurgents are playing by AMERICAN rules.

Isnt time for you to go burn down some embassies because of a danish cartoon?
Colin B.
2006-03-13 00:58:07 UTC
Permalink
In calgary.general TC <***@diespamdieflashmail.com> wrote:
> 'American Apparently Tortured Before Death'
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060312/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
>
> I say so what?
>
> Look at Abu Ghraib prison. Look at Guantanemo. And these are just the
> American run facilities we know about conclusively. What about all the other
> places that haven't made headlines.
>
> Americans are torturing others left, right and centre. It is open season for
> torture.
>
> In the new America torture is GOOD! It's entirely acceptable behaviour on
> men, women or children.

The problem here is that many of the citizens of the USA are against torture.
In fact, many of the soldiers and front-line servicemen DO NOT SUPPORT this
sort of behaviour, yet they're the ones who pay the price for the official
policy (which supports torture) and the leaders' behaviour (which leads to
torture).

Furthermore, this guy was a peace activist. Doesn't make a lot of difference,
but fundamentally, (a) nobody deserves to be tortured, and (b) the ones who
are suffering are not the ones responsible, for the most part.
g***@vcn.bc.ca
2006-03-13 06:52:19 UTC
Permalink
"Colin B." <***@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:
"B> The problem here is that many of the citizens of the USA are against tortu
"B> In fact, many of the soldiers and front-line servicemen DO NOT SUPPORT thi
"B> sort of behaviour, yet they're the ones who pay the price for the official
"B> policy (which supports torture) and the leaders' behaviour (which leads to
"B> torture).

Don't worry; the propaganda mind-bending machine is well at work to get
Americans first used to the idea of torturing infidels, then soon enough
enthusiastically behind it!


--

Because I care,

|<+]::-( ("Cyberpope," the Bishop of ROM!)
(aka Reverend George A. Pope)
(Please quote with "gapope wrote...")
-=-
In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
in all things, charity. -- Baxter quoting Augustine
-=-
note new preferred reply email: Cyberpope67(at)yahoo(dot)com

PS This post specially encoded for verification purposes
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